This is what happens when you have a conservative administration running a state government:

the GOP is starving the Government , as they have been all along. They want everything run by private corporations ...look how well Walter Reed did after contracting out to private enterprise.

or Blackwater ....Republicans think hiring Blackwater was a cost saver.

II's like their foolish idea to cut spending to save jobs and save the economy. Just how are you going to "save jobs" by cutting all the federal jobs they would have to slash?

Interesting you said that. I was thinking that the government could run the electrical power distribution system. It would buy solar power from residences and other buildings and sell it to businesses during the day. Instead of taxes they'll earn a distribution fee.

Residents could power their cars and store electrical power with hydrogen.

We clean the environment and pay for the government at the same time. Win-win.

When any one figures out how a enterprise like government can sustain itself without taxes please let me know.

The government starving itself of revenue is a government on it's way to failure.

maybe you need a willie wonka lesson:

oompa loompa doopity dee If I cant manage a budget I will tax thee....

What do you get when spend more than tax

a deficit on the mend, and your party gets the ax

oompa loompa doopity dee, dont spend more so you will tax me!.

here is the CBO website...
http://www.cbo.gov/

The Obama adminstration is without revenue yet continues to spend...so your own party will answer your own question.

billy loompa oompa. You need a lesson in economics.

The tax breaks for the rich have never created a job. This is republican propaganda spoon fed to the gullible and those that refuse to do any research.

Christie just made the fat cats even fatter on the backs of the middle class. period.

To say if we increase a persons PERSONAL wealth we will get jobs, is a myth. If it was true, where are all the jobs for the last 10 yrs? Poof they were never there.

Let me ask you something. When is the last time you got your paycheck from your CEO's personal checking account?? YOU NEVER DID. Rich people do not create jobs, companies do.

The person that is your CEO today could leave tomorrow and go someplace else. He is taking his personal checking account wih him. If you still have a job, your company pays you, not him. Oompa loompa.

Regarding your tax and spend-Bush hid his 2 wars in supplements. They were never included in the budget so he looked all rosey. Obama has them listed in the budget as they should have been all along. So who's going to pay for a trillion dollar war?

Now-oompa along and do some research, and check the name on your paycheck to see if it is a company check or your CEO's.

Ted clearly your lesson in economics was given you by a government school. Perhaps you are the one in need of an economics lesson.

Additionally, you do know that most small businesses are owned by the CEO, so yes, that money comes DIRECTLY out of his pockets.

Rich people do not create jobs, companies do

who owns companies? who invests in other companies when they take thier personal checkbook away from thier company? Who provides capital for expanions and more resources?

who owns companies? who invests in other companies when they take thier personal checkbook away from thier company? Who provides capital for expanions and more resources?

Gawd you people are clueless.

Name me one instance where an increase in supply has created demand without lowering price.

I am waiting, and will be waiting for a long, long time.

Now, back to your BS. Isn't it great for a corporation to have capital to invest, but why would said corporation invest in capital equipment, etc without an increase in demand?

Who owns companies depends largely on the type of company you're talking about. But if you honestly think true small business owners count as the wealthy, clearly your crack smoking is as detrimental as your clear lack of understanding of capitalist theory.

Who invests in companies? Uh, they are called loans pal, so technically the banksters. And therein lies part of the problem. The banksters got bailed out, then decided to sit on the cash until the inevitable round of mergers and acquisitions began. Plus, with the Fed holding the prime rate soooooo low it has become more profitable for these banks to make short-term investments than lend money to consumers and small businesses.

Rich people do not create jobs, companies do

So to get back to this quote, and your fundamentally incorrect assessment of it. The reality is that the only thing that truly creates jobs is DEMAND.

Silly supply sider, perhaps you need an Econ 101 refresher or something. I might recommend tuning the channel away from Fixed Noise for a while. It's kinda like quitting smoking, after a while your brain will return to normal, provided you haven't done any permanent damage.

The company does. THE COMPANY does. If a small business owner makes 200K a year, you give him more tax breaks so he is keeping more of that 200K. Is he going to create more jobs from his personal account and the extra money he gets to keep? Or if he gets tax breaks for the business is he going to reinvest through the company and hire through the business? If his business goes belly up, does his personal account need to go belly up too? Nope.

Companies are the ones that meet the demand for a product. That's where the jobs are created. Not the guy that got to keep a few more bucks on his personal wealth.

Additionally, you do know that most small businesses are owned by the CEO, so yes, that money comes DIRECTLY out of his pockets.

Another genius at work.

A CEO is an executive appointed typically by the Board of Directors. The Board is controlled by the major owners/partners.

Name me one instance where an increase in supply has created demand without lowering price.

Milk !

Seems the demand increases and the price keeps going up.

Will that help you on your question?

Ted 050247

The tax breaks for the rich have never created a job

Rich people do not create jobs, companies do

When is the last time you got your paycheck from your CEO's personal checking account??

Oompa loompa doopity dee, basic accounting is needed for thee.

what do you get when tax breaks expire

No money for jobs, no people you get to hire

oompa loompa doopity dee, Democrats dont need a spending spree

billy- Was your last paycheck drawn on a company account or your CEO's personal account? Did you check? That is if you even work.

If you stop playing with yourself to the oompa loompa tune you could focus better.

Seems the demand increases and the price keeps going up.

Not quite, nice try. I didn't expect anything cogent or thoughtful.

As a matter of fact, you didn't come close to answering my question. Is it too late for you to delete your comment, it comes off rather unspophisticated, to put it mildly.

So you are asserting that the supply of milk has increased, thus increasing demand? Is this really what you're suggesting? Really?

I feel sorry for you.

Oompa loompa doopity dee, basic accounting is needed for thee.

what do you get when tax breaks expire

No money for jobs, no people you get to hire

oompa loompa doopity dee, Democrats dont need a spending spree

Pal, tell me one instance where a company has hired without increased demand. One, just one.

Pick up an Econ 101 book, for your sake and the rest of us.

try not to take too seriously those responding to questions with nursery rhymes.

if the tax breaks worked, we'd be sitting pretty cool right now. but they didn't. this is really very simple.

also, i just got wind of an interview on NPR's Fresh Air with a guy named Robert Reich (pronounced RYE-sh). It was absolutely the most concise explanation of why the middle class is extra broke now. He explained the financial coping mechanisms used to fend off finacial disaster for years: Women entered the workforce to supplement falling wages in the 70's, that money was siphoned off to the rich, people borrowed against their mortgages which sucked up additional wealth & lastly credit was used to fend off immediate disaster; therefore, off-setting immediate disaster with future disaster. And here we are today.

The book's called "Aftershock". I'll be seeding the interview tomorrow.

billy- Was your last paycheck drawn on a company account or your CEO's personal account? Did you check? That is if you even work.

ooompa loompa doopity dee, if you are wise you will listen to me

what do you get when jobs are lost

you discrimnate against the rich, make them pay the cost

oompa loompa doopity dee, you'd change your mind if you paid taxes like me

Ted

you hit the nail on the head...

Was your last paycheck drawn on a company account or your CEO's personal account?

A business is a business, and just like everybody else who gets paid the business should be writing the owner a check if not then the owner is more then likely spending company money on personal items.

If your personal checking account and your business checking account are one in the same i hope you are a single person business otherwise i would not let the IRS or your employees know.

Jerryf

Additionally, you do know that most small businesses are owned by the CEO, so yes, that money comes DIRECTLY out of his pockets.

Another genius at work.

A CEO is an executive appointed typically by the Board of Directors. The Board is controlled by the major owners/partners.

Most small businesses don't have a Board of Directors.

Pal, tell me one instance where a company has hired without increased demand. One, just one.

Pick up an Econ 101 book, for your sake and the rest of us.

That's easy...any startup company. There is no demand for the product/service yet but they still need (in some cases) to hire employees.

Wow... just wow. No startup will spend a penny on development if the business plan (written years before opening the business) does not demonstrate a clear demand for the product. What kind of cockamamie venture capitalist is going to invest in a business that cannot even demonstrate a demand for its product. If this is what the right wing has to offer in terms of business acumen, it is now clear why their control of govt gave us the second worst recession in history...

No one especially the Republicans are dealing with the facts as we all know them

1. We have local, state, and Federal governments.

2. These people work delivering services which are primarily, public education, public health services, police protection, fire protection , clean water, garbage removal, and sewage.

3. These services are considered essential by most citizens

4. Without a certain level of taxes how do we pay these people?

The poor and middle class will with increased income and consumer taxes not to mention outright fees for certain services. Their disposable income goes down, the wealthiest continue to rise.

Wow... just wow. No startup will spend a penny on development if the business plan (written years before opening the business) does not demonstrate a clear demand for the product. What kind of cockamamie venture capitalist is going to invest in a business that cannot even demonstrate a demand for its product. If this is what the right wing has to offer in terms of business acumen, it is now clear why their control of govt gave us the second worst recession in history...

That's not so much true anymore Matthew. Many small business and many online businesses are started and money spent before they have demand large enough to completely justify the expenses. If that wasn't the case then more people wouldn't take the RISK of spending a bunch of money just to see it fail because there is no demand for it.

No one (with half a brain and a knack for investment) risks money without a probability analysis of whether or not that investment will pay off. This is as true when you play the stock market as it is when you look for venture capital.

Startups may spend money before they are selling product or making any profit, but this is completely independent of the market analysis that was conducted to determine the degree to which a demand for the product exists. This is why publishers don't print 1 million copies of every book they print... right? First they estimate the demand. I'm guessing you are not in business...

You really think that investors (or banks) just give out money (especially large sums of money) to folks with a few ideas scratched on a napkin? If you want a business loan or capital investment, you need to have a really tight business plan that clearly demonstrates both the presence of a market (demand) and a plan for how YOUR business can effectively tap that demand.

No one (with half a brain and a knack for investment) risks money without a probability analysis of whether or not that investment will pay off. This is as true when you play the stock market as it is when you look for venture capital.

Startups may spend money before they are selling product or making any profit, but this is completely independent of the market analysis that was conducted to determine the degree to which a demand for the product exists. This is why publishers don't print 1 million copies of every book they print... right? First they estimate the demand. I'm guessing you are not in business...

You really think that investors (or banks) just give out money (especially large sums of money) to folks with a few ideas scratched on a napkin? If you want a business loan or capital investment, you need to have a really tight business plan that clearly demonstrates both the presence of a market (demand) and a plan for how YOUR business can effectively tap that demand.

So...you agree with me then.

The original question was a simple one.

Pal, tell me one instance where a company has hired without increased demand. One, just one.

Thanks for taking my simple explanation and further detailing my point!

And yes, I own multiple businesses. Thanks.

Henry Ford knew, if you want to sell a lot of something, you have to pay enough to the workers so they can afford buy it...

prophat, don't be a troll... My comment (2.20) was clearly in response to your immediately preceding statement (2.19) where you wrote:

That's easy...any startup company. There is no demand for the product/service yet but they still need (in some cases) to hire employees.

Your statement clearly indicates that a company will invest money and even hire employees when 'there is NO demand for the product'. I made it quite clear that this statement was unreasonable and now you seem to agree with me.

Now what is interesting about recent economic times is that most major US companies are stockpiling cash and not hiring even though demand is building... Now that is odd fiscal behavior and should tell us something about corporate influence in our political process.

Which comes first the product or the demand?

All of you know what prototypes are don't you?

Some one always has to think of it, design it, build it refine it and get the bugs out, and then market it before any one ever buys it.

renard - You are absolutely correct. It's too bad that other people don't recognize that fact.

renard - You are absolutely correct. It's too bad that other people don't recognize that fact.

Any company that goes the process of engineering and prototyping without having first done market research to gauge potential demand, generate forecasts and understand competitive products is a company that will not be in business for very long.

Quit arguing this point, you only look foolish. You don't understand how businesses function, and you sure as hell have no understanding of how new product introductions work. Me, I do it for a living, so I am speaking from knowledge and experience.

I am done with you.

All of you know what prototypes are don't you?

Yes, I engineer, design and prototype new products for a living, so you're barking up the wrong tree here pal.

I do not design products for which there is no demand, we have a marketing dept that gauges potential need before I even put pen to paper.

Get a clue.

Any company that goes the process of engineering and prototyping without having first done market research to gauge potential demand, generate forecasts and understand competitive products is a company that will not be in business for very long.

Quit arguing this point, you only look foolish. You don't understand how businesses function, and you sure as hell have no understanding of how new product introductions work. Me, I do it for a living, so I am speaking from knowledge and experience.

I am done with you.

Believe it or not, I know what I am talking about Jerry and you AGREE WITH ME based on the first paragraph in your comment.

Just a little history about me...I am 30 years old with multiple masters degree from a very prestigious college in Camgridge, MA maybe you've heard of it. I've been recently featured in Entrepreneur Magazine and Business Insider for one of my newest businesses. I'd tell you my real name and business, but I like my anonymity thank you very much.

I'm surprised, Prophat - you handle yourself extremely well for someone so young! Congratulations and wishes for much success in your endeavors!

Prophat247

I like my anonymity thank you very much.

For the same reason the KKK wear Hoods

So Prove It, lets see a degree and not an alias, and a Birth certificate too!

Just Kidding,

I know we are all people of integrity here in Newsvine and we can take you for your word.

Just a little history about me...I am 30 years old with multiple masters degree from a very prestigious college in Camgridge, MA maybe you've heard of it. I've been recently featured in Entrepreneur Magazine and Business Insider for one of my newest businesses. I'd tell you my real name and business, but I like my anonymity thank you very much.

Couldn't care less. Obviously you didn't go to the prestigious college or you'd know market research AKA gauging demand is paramount to any development process. No professor worth their salt would teach otherwise. None.

Daniel and Jerry - Lucky for me I am self actualized and don't need your validation or anybody elses for that matter.

And Jerry

Couldn't care less. Obviously you didn't go to the prestigious college or you'd know market research AKA gauging demand is paramount to any development process. No professor worth their salt would teach otherwise. None.

Clearly you should gauge demand for your product/service. You are speaking in absolutes and that is an ignorant thing to do. You asked for one company that hired without an increase in demand. Startups do it all the time. Not that it is the correct thing to do, but they do it.

Startups do it all the time.

Not quite. Inventors do, not venture capitalists, not businesses. Some guy in his basement, maybe, but that is not the discussion here. Good luck with being self actualized.

Jerry, I've been hitting prophat with these highlights for a day now... it is not worth the effort. In prophat land, rich people throw money at ruggedly independent thinkers with good ideas, regardless of whether or not they offer a business plan... I think the second paragraph of 2.30 says it best...

I Agree if its a normal women hitting hard times. But not Baby farmers no.

So "baby farmers" should get abortions?

Im against abortion personally but each to their own. Its the womens right to choose. My son being born changed me alot. But Im not into telling someone else what to do

I thought the health care problem was solved by Pres. Obama and his ilk. Are all you suggesting that it isn't?

I thought that the "mission" was "accomplished" in Iraq. More than a trillion dollars later, are you suggesting that it isn't?

The Garden State's reversal in fortune was due to a large drop in the number of wealthy households entering the state and a moderate increase in the number of wealthy households leaving.

This sounds like what's happening everywhere because of the economy. Where are all these people moving to? Greenwich CT or Chappaqua NY? No tax breaks there.

Christie has been gov since Jan 2010. 9 months now. When does he have to stop blaming the sins on the past administration and has to own and be responsible for the problem?

JJM - I'm sure you have ask the same question of Pres. Obama don't you?

We already established Obama's milestone. We started at 14 months and now at 17 months he own's it all.. The economy the war's, he is responsible for everything...it's now Obama's economy, Obama's wars and we have named him a failure. . So, the same metric applies and why wouldn't it... at 17 months Christie owns it all and if he hasn't fixed it by then he too is a failure.

what is a fiscally conservative democrat ?? sounds like a republican to me
so tax cuts for the rich are ok as long as you cut services to the poor and needy

is that what a conservative democrat is ? you are in the wrong party

No. It's not.

Um, yes it is.

Uh, hopefully you ran that by Caribou Barbie and Crazy Jim DeMint, they seem to think they represent the Republican party, quickly dragging you to crazyland.

hvymti83 Correct. A big part of fixing this problem is to recognize both party's competing agendas got us into this mess. Once it time to 'pay the piper' the process is driving you not you driving the process. It doesn't really matter who's in charge then. Your options for success are very limited...regardless of your party affiliation or platform..

Yes, let's get back to the real world and read the article...

"[t]he bill specifically says clinics, which provide birth control and health screenings, cannot use the money for abortions." With the abortion issue out of the picture, it's just about women's health -- low-income women's health.

Oooops!

http://www.lifenews.com/state5348.html

Trenton, NJ (LifeNews.com) -- The U.S. Inspector General for the Department of Health and Human Services has uncovered a consistent problem with New Jersey-based family planning clinics run by the Planned Parenthood abortion business. They were found to be improperly billing Medicaid for services that did not qualify as family planning.

An initial audit revealed New Jersey improperly received federal reimbursement at the enhanced 90% rate for 160,955 prescriptions drug claims that were billed as family planning, but did not qualify as family planning services. A letter from the Inspector General to New Jersey officials recommended that New Jersey repay $2,219,746 to the federal government.

Veto GOOD, Letting it pass, BAD!

Gov. Christie's fixes are not being driven by party affiliation or platform. It's the only thing left anyone can do....once you get to the point where cutting programs is completely non-partisan and across the board that's when you can say the system has truly collapsed and there is no room for agenda's.

The only agenda that can fix NJ and other liberal bastions like CA, MI, etc. is conservatism. To say that his fixes are driven by anything other than the fact that he is a conservative is a flat out lie.

Prophat - are you saying that "conservative" and "Partisan" are the same thing? I don't believe that. I think the man just simply understands the concept of not spending more than you bring in. And as for having to turn down federal funds by his veto of this bill, I suggest that OTHER governnors should do the same. I am sick and tired of "use it or lose it" mentalitiy with respect to federal matching money. It's just simply wasteful.

No they aren't the same thing.

But if he was so conservative he could have made cuts from other places, not school and health related, and not police.

Kjmgirl I understand not spending more than you bring in but there weren't other places the could have trimmed or cut to reel the state back in?

Please provide me a link that says he only made cuts from school and health related spending.

Did I say only? But in my opinion, those areas need help not to be cut.

Kelly - may I suggest that when you have the problems that NJ has, it is quite likely that you've had too many years of increasing too many budgets for too many areas. Whether or not they need "help" is really fairly subjective. Have you considered that once the state is back on budget you may be able to cut taxes to the extent that these people can BUY THEIR OWN CONTRACEPTIVES instead of having the state pay for them? May I suggest that maybe these people can try alternative birth control methods which do not COST ANYTHING? May I suggest that we do so much for so many that there is just simply NO WAY to pay for it regardless of how much you might think it is "needed.

kjmgirl - You are just being totally ridiculous now. You are expecting people to take some responsibility for their actions! Come on, get with times!

kjmgirl

Way to go!

Ok so you take one point I said, health related issues, and ignore what else I said hun. I can agree with that point but there are other issues covered under the health bill not just contraceptives...

And, so forget education, forget protection right. Your telling me with all the Programs going on in NJ they couldn't cut from something less useless instead of the 2 most important areas?

I'm saying that when you have a state which is practically bankrupt, EVERYTHING is fair game and that is as it should be.

education is fair game?? shortage of police, public safety is fair game???? MOre bs!!!! Like I said there are hunderds of other places he could have cut from. With the education already so low budget you go and cut it again, and because his office made a mistake? really? And I'm suppose to vote for someone who doesn't have our states best interest in mind. thanks you really help sway my decision.

Kelly - YES. Every single program which is funded by taxpayer dollars IS fair game. IF your education budget is "so low" then why are your teachers making $90K a year (Oh you must have seen the teacher at Christie's press conference bitching about her "low" salary). Maybe you should talk to your teachers unions about taking away some of their salaries to pay for books, and schools and the rest.

You think he doesn't have your state's best interests in mind? HELLO!!! He's trying to SAVE NEW JERSEY FROM BANKRUPTCY!

I must assume here that you don't have a CLUE what a budget is and feel there is absolutely NO NEED to balance what you spend with what you bring in. SOOOOO typically Liberal!

kjmgirl, please never assume...you only make an a$$ out of yourself...thanks

....and No, I will talk to the state's government about lowering their salaries because obviously they aren't doing their job. Its in the best interests of our kids to get a good education, its in our best interests to be protected.

YES. Every single program which is funded by taxpayer dollars IS fair game. IF your education budget is "so low" then why are your teachers making $90K a year (Oh you must have seen the teacher at Christie's press conference bitching about her "low" salary). Maybe you should talk to your teachers unions about taking away some of their salaries to pay for books, and schools and the rest.

This is one of the most ridiculous post I've seen yet, LOL!!!! You make it sound like most teachers make that? and if they did, who cares, their job is important, probably more important than yours. At least they have a true purpose. Secondly, that's what it comes down to, punishing the Teachers because the state can not budget, really. People we trust to help us teach our kids...really??? A temporary freeze on teacher salaries I can agree with, but to cut funding to the school that helps get supplies is irresponsible and misguided. Like I said there are hunderds of other programs/areas he could have cut from leaving the 2 most important areas alone, even health related issues...smh at this nonsense

Kelly - ok have it your way. you are obviously one of those people who don't CARE about the deficit as long as YOUR favorite projects get funding. Unfortunately there are a lot of you out there and ALL of them have favorite projects. People with the inability to see that everybody must take across the board cuts are the reason why the deficit has exploded.

Education is a project?? Security is a project? since when??? and where do you see me say I don't care about the deficit, please do not pick out stuff and make into what you want it to mean. Education a project too funny...

NJ pays more to the feds per capita than all but 5 other states, so for the governor to forgo an opportunity to bring it back and allow it to go somewhere else seems a little foolish. Also, some programs end up saving money when compared to the alternative. Preventive programs can keep the costs of other programs lower.

When you say corrupt union, can you tell me what corrupt activity you are referring to?

tmac-don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

field-that did not answer his question.

My bet is that you don't really want an answer to that question. Here they are close to bankrupting one of the largest cities in the country with the benefit of their corrupt pensions dealings. They have bought and paid for votes on the city council, they obstruct implementation of legitimate voter approved ordinances, they use coercion to mandate project labor agreements and that's just a start.

I personally had one pol tell me that if we wanted our project approved I had to commit to union labor. Then while meeting with the union boss he dialed up his cell phone and said, so what's it going to be?

Then after we began the project the union labor folks tried to renege on a deal for subsidies that were designed to reduce the cost of their labor in order to be more competitive in the marketplace. Then they went on to purposefully attempt to screw us on change orders and later when we found an alternate contractor who would do the job for almost half price for one of the biggest revisions they actually admitted they did it on purpose.

I willing to bet it's much worse in Jersey. In parts of CA it's off the charts.

Painting with a broad brush is fun.

All Conservatives are sociopaths who have severer mental defects that retards normal human emotions so they really think words like "empathy" are some secreat Liberal code word because it's beyond the limits of their experience. They are left with only the most basic primitive feelings that animals have. Survival. Fear, Hunger, rage, the drive to reproduce and the defense of territorial boundaries. This explains a lot.

But luckily this is true only in a few of rarest cases of the extreme Far-Right. Most have a range of milder forms of the is handicap. fMRI's scans show it, the emotional centers of their brains are abnormally small. Hopefully, stem cell research will find a cure for them.

You see Daniel your pathetic rhetoric is interchangeable.

Without any valid evidence to back it up with you are basically clueless. All you can do is pretend you know what you're talking about,.. it feels good when you say it, but all you're doing is shooting blanks, a worthless mental masturbation.

Researchers help define what makes a political conservative

Antisocial personality disorder

Brain Regions Responsible for Empathy Mapped by Columbia Researchers

Scientists Mull Role of Empathy In Man and Beast

Jefferson has been validate. Is any wonder Conservatives are trying to bane him from their History Books.

"The want or imperfection of the moral sense in some men, like the want or imperfection of the senses of sight and hearing in others, is no proof that it is a general characteristic of the species. ---------

I sincerely... believe... in the general existence of a moral instinct. I think it the brightest gem with which the human character is studded, and the want of it as more degrading than the most hideous of the bodily deformities." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.

/ Have fun.

It hurts to think when you're not that used to it, take two.

Please provide a link showing progressives running around with a red book yelling mao give me an answer. Then provide a link showing the communist manifesto. Ooops you can't. You're just talking out of your butt---AGAIN.

Now put down the beer. You had enough and I hate for people to think you are a jacka$$. Thanks.

# 14: When that doesn't work they start what their best at name calling and lying.

Pot meet kettle !

Ted 0/outthere

Wow, the truth hurts doesn't it? Comrades can you please lighten up a bit. No sense of humor in the both of you. I suggest you stop reading such heavy works like the Communist Manifesto and start reading "Animal Farm" instead. The cartoons will make it easier for the both of you to understand your progressive philosophy.

yes, and when you finally have no shred of intellectual credibility left, fall back on the, 'you folks have no sense of humor' line, even though there was no attempt at humor in the thread... afloat wasn't trying to be funny, so I don't see where a sense of humor comes in. Afloat, if you were trying to be funny,...

total fail. keep your day job.

Floaty would not know the truth if it walked up and slapped him/her on the forehead. Another teapottier with nothing credible or intelligent to add. Communist manifesto? Get outta here.

See, "Pro - Life" would save the poor, well, maybe not.

Birth control is such a money savor at times.

I always thought "pro life" was a line of crap.

Those same people who call themselves "pro life" are also "pro death penalty".

hypocrites....pro life implies pro ALL life.

Just can't find any definition that "Pro-Life" means all life.

Even went back as far as 1971.

Is the angry left really arguing that we should kill innocent babies and not dangerous killers?

In what world does that make sense?

How in the world could you get that interpretation from what angry left said?

Let me help you. He is arguing that if you want to kill convicted murders (because they have lost their rights) than you have the right to kill others that also have no rights (fetuses) OR if you don't think it is legal to kill fetuses, than you can't have any other form of state sponsored killing? Does that help?

Is the angry left really arguing that we should kill innocent babies and not dangerous killers?

Babies are already born, and abortion does not apply to babies. A mass of tissue that can't survive outside the womb is not a baby. You can put it in a onesie and give it a rattle, but it's not going to learn to walk or talk. Sorry.

I'm on the angry Left, and I am all for killing dangerous killers. I'm all for killing terrorists too, especially home-grown religious terrorists, they ACTUALLY threaten our security.

So you are also fine with killing innocent babies? But for passage of time is a construct those in the legal world use routinely. I suppose if you intend to kill something it helps to pretend it's not really murder.

No, I am all for abortions if that's what the mother chooses, but killing innocent babies is wrong, that's called "murder".

Ahhhh, I see, you don't understand the difference between abortion and murder. It's sad to see how bad the educational is in action.

Is the angry left really arguing that we should kill innocent babies and not dangerous killers?

Nice way to twist it around but that's not what I meant. I can't say I totally agree with abortion, however I don't believe my personal opinions have jack @!$%# to do with someone having to make that decision. It's not my business.

I would say a happy median would be somewhere around 20 weeks. If the fetus is viable if removed from the body would be the determining factor. Until it is capable of basic human function on it's own It cannot be considered anything besides a fetus.

There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a fetus automatically becomes viable. According to data years 2003-2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.

I am also not opposed to the death penalty. I'm opposed to the 8-12% of convicts that the DOJ reports as "wrongfully convicted".

Thank you Matthew for explaining it in my absence. FR sent.

my pleasure. hope I didn't misrepresent your views in some way.

It was only a matter of time!!! LOL HAHAHAHA!! Oh you liberals! What a cut-up!

Somalia is what happens when you have a collapsed government or the government no longer functions. Same thing happened to the Soviet Union (1991). Let, us hope that we as a country are more intelligent - even though there are elements that would like to see it happen for their own financial gains.

Heres a good example of what happens when right wing politics rule a country.

Nazi Germany.

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists [Liberals] for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country; Hermann Göring

The Rise of a Fourth Reich will not be tolerated in America!

Well that was amusing, Daniel! Now go take your pill and lay down.

Do you like to insult people who rub your nose in the truth?

The delusional F/righties want everyone to forget the extremes to the Right-Wing even exist.... so they can have no limits to their turpitude.

I bet you'd love to put all these nasty Liberals, intellectuals, artist and homosexuals in death camps... the good old days huh. They were made to "Disappear" as well as the Jews.

"Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace."~ Benito Mussolini

The Liberal State is a mask behind which there is no face; it is a scaffolding behind which there is no building. Benito Mussolini

"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal. Benito Mussolini

Look at the Far-Right Conservatives and what they are for, and what they are against, how they hate monger and demonize others to stir up mob mentalities, how they are trying to discredit our system of government,,, and replace it with what? Do they say? this happened before when a Democracy was abolished and a right-wing authoritarian nationalist government was instated in it's place .... what has changed in the goals of the Far-Right? What difference to you see in the tactics they use now?
Everything they say that you should fear, "including death Panels for grandma" they have done, so we know they are more capable of it.

Know a tree by it's fruit.

There are the same number of "Far-Right" conservatives as their are "Progressive-Left" socialists in this country. Being NEITHER myself, I find it difficult to believe that ANYBODY in their right mind would even begin to consider that intellectuals, artists or gays should be put into death camps.

As far as it being the far-right which is attempting to discredit our system of government - I beg to differ. Our system of government is in far more danger from the progressives who are currently IN POWER. Finally, may I point out to you that we do not HAVE a democracy in this country - we have a Constitutional Republic. Of course, the disintegration of our Constitution over the past 75 years starting with FDR is turning the USA into a democracy, which will ultimately BE the downfall of America.

So BOTH parties, Dems and republicans are to blame and that the ONLY way to save our country is to eliminate them all from positions of power and return the government to WE THE PEOPLE - under the Libertarian model of government.

Sorry but no. Liberals Are the center of the world already...

We the people are social by nature not anti-social!

The USSR, China, North Korea are not and never have been socialist or communist, there are not now, Nor have there ever been any true socialist countries or Communist countries, they are/were still small government dictatorships.

Marxism can't happen, it works only on paper. because with all popular movements, like the Tea Party for instance... the Right find a way to buy a spot in front of the parade as if it was theirs and then take it over.

In North Korea the have a virtual King,n (as does Cuba and China) and they worship him as god-father by Law. His son will succeed him as a prince would...

And just because the name of the country is called "the Democratic People's Republic of Korea" doesn't mean it's Democratic or Republican, It's just a name. They are still a country of right-wing authoritarian isolationist.

The socialist/communist movements began as revolutions against conservative monarchial governments inspired By American Democracy, but they don't work and never will because the people can't VOTE a bad politician out of office. Small government dosn't work...

It is anti-American, oppressive and tyrannical because it doesn't represent the majority, so they need fear and intimidation to hold power.... like the Right...

Big Government here includes you and me, not just a small group. Keeping them honest is our job, being educated enough to do this is also the duty of a citizen.

Stupidity is not our patriotic duty!

"I suspect that the doctrine, that small States alone are fitted to be republics, will be exploded by experience, with some other brilliant fallacies accredited by Montesquieu and other political writers. Perhaps it will be found that to obtain a just republic (and it is to secure our just rights that we resort to government at all) it must be so extensive as that local egoisms may never reach its greater part; that on every particular question a majority may be found in its councils free from particular interests and giving, therefore, a uniform prevalence to the principles of justice. The smaller the societies, the more violent and more convulsive their schisms." --Thomas Jefferson to Francois d'Ivernois, 1795.

The whole body of the nation is the sovereign legislative, judiciary, and executive power for itself. The inconvenience of meeting to exercise these powers in person, and their inaptitude to exercise them, induce them to appoint special organs to declare their legislative will, to judge and to execute it. It is the will of the nation which makes the law obligatory; it is their will which creates or annihilates the organ which is to declare and announce it. They may do it by a single person, as an emperor of Russia (constituting his declarations evidence of their will), or by a few persons, as the aristocracy of Venice, or by a complication of councils, as in our former regal government or our present republican one. The law being law because it is the will of the nation, is not changed by their changing the organ through which they choose to announce their future will; no more than the acts I have done by one attorney lose their obligation by my changing or discontinuing that attorney." --Thomas Jefferson to Edmund Randolph, 1799.

There are the same number of "Far-Right" conservatives as their are "Progressive-Left" socialists in this country. Being NEITHER myself, I find it difficult to believe that ANYBODY in their right mind would even begin to consider that intellectuals, artists or gays should be put into death camps.

Sorry but that's exactly what Happened in Germany, all who opposed them and were smart enough to see what they were doing got thrown in...and all the mentally handicapped as well. The Final solution.. nice and neat, Black and white solutions. Breaking eggs to make an omelet..

Only the most CONSERVATIVE ones will survive and we all must get in line right now if we want to be free.... HA! They are eating themselves like dogs NOW!

Don't Think so:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009232940_apmliranelection.html

The defeated conservative candidate in Iran's disputed presidential election warned the government and opposition protesters that more postelection turmoil could lead to the country's disintegration

Iran would be a Theocracy - the chief of state: Supreme Leader Ali Hoseini-KHAMENEI (since 4 June 1989). That's what happens when you let religion run your country.

I'll bet everyone thinks this guy is the leader - Mahmud AHMADI-NEJAD. He is only #2.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

That's what happens when you let religion run your country.

Indeed! Maintain the separation of church and state! There's a reason the Founding Fathers thought it was a good idea.

Not sure about right now, but historically, blue states are donors to the federal government while red states are debtors and receive more from the feds than they give in taxes. These data are available on-line going back some years.

Here are the data for 2009:

http://www.sustainablemiddleclass.com/Subsidized-Red-Do...

SUBSIDIZED STATES: (Dollars received for every tax dollar paid)

North Dakota (2.03), New Mexico (1.89), Mississippi (1.84), Alaska (1.82), West Virginia (1.74), Montana (1.64), Alabama (1.61), South Dakota (1.59), Arkansas (1.53), Hawaii (1.52), Virginia (1.47), Oklahoma (1.47), Kentucky 1.46), Louisiana (1.44), Idaho (1.34), South Carolina (1.32), Missouri (1.32), Maine (1.31), Tennessee (1.24), Iowa (1.22), Arizona (1.20), Maryland (1.20), Nebraska (1.19), Utah (1.14), Kansas (1.14), Vermont (1.12), Pennsylvania (1.08), North Carolina (1.07), Rhode Island (1.06), Wyoming (1.05), Ohio (1.02), Georgia (1.01). (26 Red States, 6 Blue States)

BREAK-EVEN STATES: Oregon (1.00), Florida (1.00) (1 Red State, 1 Blue State)

DONOR STATES:

Indiana (0.99), Texas (0.92), Washington (0.91), Michigan (0.90), Wisconsin (0.87), Delaware (0.85), California (0.81), New York (0.81), Colorado (0.79), Massachusetts (0.79), Illinois (0.77), Minnesota (0.77), Nevada (0.73), New Hampshire (0.68), Connecticut (0.64), New Jersey (0.62).(4 Red States, 12 Blue States).

So, four times as many red states than blue states are subsidized (take more than they give) and 3 times as many blue states as red states are donor states (give more than they take).

Granted all of this is very personal, but to degrade life as you have in your post tells me there must be something very sick at your core. Maybe if you had the experienced the beauty of a would be aborted baby touch your life in ways that are impossible to put into words, then maybe you would feel differently. But that's certainly not coming through in your message.

Actually, i am the parent of two beautiful children. and i am a very, very good father.

I would suggest that it is possible that you mised the fact that i object to abortion on a moral level. My point is that I do not have the right to require others to adhere to my beliefs.

I would add, Thomas, that you are therefore not qualified to diagnose me as "sick at my core". But that is just my opinion.

Anyone who would intentionally misinterpret a comment, just so they could pass the irrelevent judgment that they think someone is "sick at the core" is truly sick, but more than likely just in the brain.

People like Thomas get thrills out of passing judgment on others based on distortions and lies.

TBOT - Iron lung knows who I was referring to but perhaps your your reference to a parasitic life form abetted your defensiveness.

And by the way, the day you all want to stop passing judgment on others will be the day I die of shock. So Iron Lung, I've just demonstrated that your comments represent the height of hypocrisy.

That was the point of all this, not the subject matter.

Now, excuse me I have a pennant race to attend to.

but to degrade life as you have in your post tells me there must be something very sick at your core.

How is Bringer's post degrading to life? There is nothing there to suggest such a thing.

but perhaps your your reference to a parasitic life form abetted your defensiveness.

A fetus essentially is a parasite.

So Iron Lung, I've just demonstrated that your comments represent the height of hypocrisy.

Ironlung's comment is more of an assessment, rather than a judgement.

And by the way, the day you all want to stop passing judgment on others will be the day I die of shock. So Iron Lung, I've just demonstrated that your comments represent the height of hypocrisy.

It's funny. I have never been really big on posting responses on the discussion boards on the interwebs, but if we get to declare ourselves victor in a friendly intellectual debate, I am all in!!!

So, Thomas, I believe the facts speak for themselves. I am better looking than you.

just saying

Oh, and also, your post was in reply to my post, so i believe it is logical to assume that it wsa, in fact, a reply to my post. But if I am misrepresenting facts here, please feel free to enlighten me.

this post further proves that I am awesome, and i believe I can expect all of your votes in the next presidential primaries.

Yes it would have been appropriate to post that comment elsewhere. I was rushing to address multiple posters at the time.

The notion that one can support someone's ability to terminate the life of the unborn and not support abortion is a nonsensical distinction without a difference. I had to reconcile my own internal contradictions in that regard over the years that resemble in some ways those expressed here.

But again, my point isn't about abortion as much as it is the contradiction. The contradiction expressed in a finger pointing manner at those that support the death penalty versus those that don't support abortion. If you can rationalize away the rights of a life that has every reason to live and not come to grips with the reasoning for ending the lives of those who no longer deserve to do so, then you have a bigger problem than those that feel conversely in my opinion.

Nevertheless, I feel comments such as those below reveal a degraded view of the life of the unborn.

parasitic lifeform develop in my midsection, and to potentially change my whole lifestyle to allow it the opportunity to be healthy when it forces it's way through my bleeding genitals.

A mass of tissue that can't survive outside the womb is not a baby.

Personally, I don't like to inject abortion into the political arena. But it makes perfect sense to me that one would support the life of someone yet to be born over the life of an unrepentant murderer.

Thomas, I appreciate your response.

My post was not intended as a judgement, or as a distinction between right and wrong. It was intended purely as an expressoin of opinion, and that opinion is not simple. I reject the notion, however, that it is nonsensical.

And, while I also understand that your posts are not intended to address only mine as a reply, I would also note that your quotes are from multiple posts. If nailed down to it, I would say that my issue is that this is such a gray area, and it is very ballsy to take such an absolute stance.

I believe that a life begins at conception, but i also believe that my beliefs do not dicate the beliefs of others. Or the path that their life takes.

Now, maybe I missed it, but I dont think i mentioned the death penalty. Again, I know you are important and can only afford the time to post once in response to multiple insults to your sense of propriety, so I will chalk it up under the "umbrella opinion" category. No big deal.

I happen to also believe that the death penalty is morally sound, if it is warranted. If i understand your post, we agree at least on that.

Again, to summarize - Abortion: not my thing. Dictating morality: also not my thing. Death Penalty: some people deserve it.

Arguing on the internet: priceless.

sundown - thank you for the rational reasonable post. Unfortunately, it's a lot more fun to scream that Christie just wants to kill women and babies and shut down schools.