When Stupid People don't Know that They are Stupid: Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor Rally and the Dunning-Kruger Effect

This part of that Wikipedia article stood out:

Indeed, Dunning et al. cite a study saying that 94% of college professors rank their work as "above average" (relative to their peers), to underscore that the highly intelligent and informed are hardly exempt.

It made me think of what I think is a very high rate of physician-pilot crashes, especially among surgeons (just a sense of it being disproportionately high although I have not tried to look at specific stats). This is a situation where certain highly skilled individuals and problem-solvers come to believe that they can master anything. The Greeks called it hubris.

Heck the number of lawyers who think they are smarter than their IT Departments when it comes to technology is absolutely stunning. On the other hand, from reading sites like Slashdot, it is also apparent that the number of IT people who think they know more about law than the lawyers is probably equivalent.

We are all morons about something.

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance. -- Socrates

There's also a saying roughly along the lines of, wise is the person who knows what he doesn't know.

Dave....please......this is NOT, I repeat NOT a Syndrome.

http://www.hls.gov.bc.ca/phact/glossary.htm

The term 'Syndrome' is a very specific word and should not be thrown around arbitrarily. This is an Effect.....it has to do with a psychological compensatory effect skewed by both perceived and real peer effects. It is NOT a medical condition, nor is it a conditioned effect that effects all beings within the species.

Thank You!

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which an unskilled person makes poor decisions and reaches erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to realize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

That pretty much sums up the entire liberal/progressive movement.

I'm going to remain optimistic because we don't know what will happen until after November elections.

So if the coming elections in November leave the Democrats in power, you would think that was a good thing?

Yet, you seed an article wondering if stupid people know they're stupid?

Lol ... now that is funny!

You won't respond to any of my unfounded attacks? Would that be the same as your promoting the unfounded attacks on some people interviewed by a left leaning media source, then suggest whomever was interviewed spoke to the intelligence of the entire group?

That kind of unfounded attack?

As for losing of a war, I'd suggest you lost the war before it began with the seeding of such unfounded and baseless crap.

The U.S. is running a 30% high school dropout rate. The minority may soon be the majority if that doesn't turn around soon.

Sorry, P.I.K., but stupid IS the majority. When you consider that the AVERAGE I.Q. is rated at 100 with 70 being borderline mentally challenged and 140 genius threshold, it's no wonder that the mental midgets captured on film at Becks rally are totally clueless and believe everything that is fed to them. It was like watching America in an alternate universe where everyone sees nothing clearly and just reiterates the same stupid statements over and over. I loved the deer-in-the-headlight looks by most of those interviewed when told of certain facts that counter their belief and opinions. It is truly scary that these people vote AND are allowed to congregate freely. It's a wonder that nobody was strung up by a rope to the nearest tree and hung. The offspring of these ignorant people just keep producing more ignorant people allowing this country to grind to a halt instead of progressing into the future.

It is truly scary that these people vote AND are allowed to congregate freely.

Yes, frightening how the Constitution covers all Americans.

It's a wonder that nobody was strung up by a rope to the nearest tree and hung.

It's a wonder how you'd come up with such a remark.

The offspring of these ignorant people just keep producing more ignorant people allowing this country to grind to a halt instead of progressing into the futue

Perhaps there is a better solution? Perhaps a final solution to finally propel America into a progressive eutopia full of educated philosophers and devoid of uneducated ditch diggers?

Idiocracy - It's not just a movie. It's a documentary-to-be. Watch it, it'll explain everything.

You can't fix stupid.

There's not a pill you can take. There's not a class you can go to. Stupid... is for-evaaa.

Sorry, P.I.K., but stupid IS the majority. When you consider that the AVERAGE I.Q. is rated at 100 with 70 being borderline mentally challenged and 140 genius threshold,

This article made me realize why throughout my childhood, everyone was so impressed with my I.Q. even though I didn't feel any smarter than anyone else.

"The Marching Morons" is a science fiction story written by Cyril M. Kornbluth, originally published in Galaxy in April 1951

Cyril Kornbluth and Frederick Pohl wrote about a future where citizens of the U. S. got only enough education to be able to parse advertising and consume advertised goods

Sounds like Idiocracy, rofl

The U.S. is running a 30% high school dropout rate. The minority may soon be the majority if that doesn't turn around soon.

Well of course that is what happens when people consistantly think the government can run our schools, but I wouldn't expect the smart liberals of this country to realize that! Throw more money at it ... maybe that will help lol.

No, you can't fix stupid but I'm hoping that the stupid are in the minority.

Well right now, unfortunately, the stupid are in control of Congress and the White House, we smart people in the minority hope to change some of that this November.

Paul if you mean smart as compared to a wall, an inanimate object that requires something to push it, in order to move. What's so smart about following an idiot and not knowing some of his idiotic quotes. I think they were paid because I very seldom watch the guy show, strictly for a good laugh, and I know he said the President was a secret racist. They should run with it, that they were paid, I hate to see them being that stupid for free.

Paul if you mean smart as compared to a wall, an inanimate object that requires something to push it, in order to move. What's so smart about following an idiot and not knowing some of his idiotic quotes. I think they were paid because I very seldom watch the guy show, strictly for a good laugh, and I know he said the President was a secret racist. They should run with it, that they were paid, I hate to see them being that stupid for free.

I don't care what Beck has said, they all say things that are outlandish.

What I'm laughing about is the notion of this article, do stupid people really know they're stupid, yet the people who think this seed is accurate are the very same people who continue to back the liberals in Washington DC.

Now who are the stupid ones, and do they know they're stupid?

I ask this, because both parties are responsible for what has happened to this country. To think one party is innocent of blame shows stupidity.

Instead of focusing on that we see people who go after a tv host, who holds a rally for the restoration of honor, hope, and charity, and you call the people who went to this event, stupid.

You don't see the irony in any of that? lol

Paul if you mean smart as compared to a wall ...

And getreal, pertaining to this one quote of brilliance, I'm talking about smart. Smart enough to know you cannot spend your way out of debt. Smart enough to know that we don't need 700 military bases worldwide. Smart enough to know we need to secure our borders and stop giving programs that help those who enter this country illegally. Smart enough to know you cannot cut taxes, and at the same time increase spending. Smart enough to know you cannot continue to increase the size of government, without increasing taxes. Smart enough to know most public programs offered via the Federal government should be cut/reduced. Smart enough to know less government intervention is more. Smart enough to know the IRS system of taxing should be done and replaced, preferably with the Fair Tax, taxing on consumption, rather then production. Smart enough to know we shouldn't be allowing people to collect unemployment for 99 weeks. Smart enough to know when to say enough is enough, when it comes to our Federal government thinking they know best how to do things, yet show overwhelming failure every single time.

I'd argue those that would like to continue down the path down by both current parties are about as smart as that wall you were talking about.

It's sort of like the scenario in "Idiocracy," the movie. Years and years of underfunding of education are leading to a lot of openings for mass and small-scale stupidity, alike.

Bravo Skeptic, well said.

George, do you not recognizr ignorance and stupidity. I am sorry, there is nothing honorable about being stupid. Education is a good thing, knowing about the rest of the world is a good thing. "I heard it on the news, or on tv, on and on. That is how many Americans are forming opinions, from @!$%# that they hear and do not know for a fact. You could tell these ignorant folks that the Russians were planning to invade next week and in all likelihood they would be out buying guns to get ready. Education is a key to a successful society. With ignorance we all remain behind.

Did you carry equal disdain for the Obamazombie who thought Barack was going to pay her car off? Both sides have their share of "touched" supporters.

Fact is whether Glenn Beck drew millions or hundreds, the point is he had the right to speak.

Of course he had a "right" to speak. But the real question was and still is "Does he say anything worth listening to?" All I've heard out of him is wing-nut theories and false piety.

My definition of "stupidity" being these interminable seeds who's sole purpose seems to be attacking the Tea Party, the Republican Party, Conservatives, Independents or TV Talking Heads. With invariably those self-same seeded articles having little, if any genuine substance or actual news.

Ah yes, but when articles are seeded that attack the Democratic Party, Liberals, or Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck, well that's just peachy.

Something about motes in eyes occurs to me, but most conservatives don't seem to think the source applies to them.

I agree Skeptic. I am always amazed at the critics who spew this kind of bull@!$%#. What the hell was so wrong with a group of people getting together for one common purpose? These types of seeds are becoming meaningless and serve no purpose other than to distract us from the deep @!$%# we are in as a country

Now, George. . . Lookit here, y'all are provin' PIK right as rain and don't even realize yer doin' it. . .

Skeptic and jwtiii:

If these seeds are so meaningless and have no purpose, then why oh why do you bother to post????

Now, George. . . Lookit here, y'all are provin' PIK right as rain and don't even realize yer doin' it. . .

as the disorder predicts. telling them abot it won't work. you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't use reason to get into, which is also a restatement of D-K.

The thing that democrats don't realize is that these people could be converted to democrats almost overnight. Their loyalty lies with what they see as the most dominant, and this is the party leaders that are the most irrational and flamboyantly excessive. Because of this, they regard hypocrisy in a leader as a virtue, the trait of a strong leader.

If this dominance is challenged headon with more dominant and excessive liberal leaders who openly lie about republicanism and republican leaders in imitation of the gop, they'll flip. you can't reason with them, but you can manipulate them. Republicans know how and I assume that at some point liberals will begin imitating Alan Grayson, but instead of telling the truth, do what fox does. Liberals don't have to change how they govern, just how they campaign.

George ... the left feels threatened by Beck and others on the right who have awoken to the BS happeing in Washington and it scares the living h#ll out of them.

They will do/say, just about anything to try and smear someone that opposes their view that government is the answer to everything.

If you don't like Obama's policy, it has to be because you're a racist. IF you don't think the Mosque should be built, it's because you're a racist, yet they consistantly go after Christians.

The left is nothing but a bunch of people wanting to control what we say, eat, drink, and how we feel, by having our government interfere in ways they never were meant to.

They do this, because they always seem to think they're so much smarter then everyone else. Laughable really.

Newsvine is so steeped (bogged down, actually) in Leftwing liberal stupidity, all the stalwarts manage to do, is seed empty, utterly meaningless drivel of this genre. Partly, I'd expect, to their worries about the Democrat losses expected and anticipated in November.

The Left makes a lot of noise about fear-mongering by the Right, by the Tea Party, by TV talking heads. I'd suggest the Lefties outdo those they scream about by a several magnitudes, respective to fear-mongering.

Well stated, Skeptic.

Afterall only the left could proclaim to this country that capitalism is an utter failure, yet capitalism gave us the automobile, computers, stereos, appliances, electricity, oil, gas, air conditioners, heaters, clothing, televisions, cd's, ipods, iphones, ipads, laptops ... you get the picture.

What have socialist countries, they so much love and strive to be like, ever brought this world?

Yet, they want to talk about intelligence. When they bring up such conversation, their intelligence really shows, and it's even more entertaining when you see them on here high fiving each other, over their sense of superior "intellect" ... outrageously hilarious!!!

Did you carry equal disdain for the Obamazombie who thought Barack was going to pay her car off? Both sides have their share of "touched" supporters.

Or how about the moron standing in line waiting for her, "Obama Money!!!"

#5.3:With ignorance we all remain behind.

The whole piece is well-said, Ming. Thanks!

#5.6:Of course he had a "right" to speak. But the real question was and still is "Does he say anything worth listening to?" All I've heard out of him is wing-nut theories and false piety.

What else can a drug addicted, washed up 'con man' say? He knows nothing else but the right-wing "talking points" and he practices them every chance he gets. I imagine his speech writers use their 'bible' a lot- especially lately.

When this nut beckwards started out he wasn't going for the deity bit a lot, but I imagine he got a little jealous of the right-wingers calling President Obama "Messiah" so beckwards felt he would jump on the bandwagon too. More jealously and attempted imitation in his own deranged manner!

Well, I am here to tell him that he missed the mark by a lot!

#5.10:Because of this, they regard hypocrisy in a leader as a virtue, the trait of a strong leader

So true fearless! Just look at the repugs! And the plans for the no-knowing repugs followers to vote for the repugs again- still!

Well, I am here to tell him that he missed the mark by a lot!

And I'm sure there are a lot of sleepness nights at the Beck household, because of that.

Sorry Dave, the people rallying around a guy that says enough is enough let's promote some change is not the same thing. Yes, Big O's use of the internet and young people could be considered amassing the masses (and many suffering from DKS to be sure).

Dave....what part of the rally didn't you agree with? The part about people restoring honor within themselves, treating people as equals, celebrating our military people, etc... What was amazing to me is that at the end of the rally, whether you believe in God or not, they prayed for our President and Congress. NOT ONE PERSON made a sound, no booing, yelling, etc... Try that at a left wing rally and see what happens. When they left the grounds...the trash was picked up and left stacked by the garbage cans. You cannot get a local movie theater that clean with only a couple hundred people. To me, those people showed a dedication and respect to our country's capital.

I especially like the part that Back said he held the first inaugural address in his hands... Everyone there swallowed that one! No one is allowed to handle such a precious document! The curator verified that!

Dave 42203: Perhaps if we lost our rights, honor, and founding principles it would make sense to attend a rally to restore these things. The fact is we haven't lost any of those things. Not one person interviewed could articulate anything they are upset about. If you watch other videos by Chase Whiteside from other teabagger events you will see it's always the same responses.

Glenn Beck is a charlatan, albeit a really good one.

Beck and his co-horts, the billionaire tea bagger "movement" funding Koch Brothers and their media division lead by none other than Rupert Murdoch and his second largest shareholder Muslim Prince Al-Aweed bin Talal are playing you, you know, making complete fools out of every one of you. You are hoodwinked.

"The Koch brothers must be laughing all the way to the bank knowing that working Americans are aiding and abetting their selfish interests. And surely Murdoch is snickering at those protesting the “ground zero mosque.” Last week on “Fox and Friends,” the Bush administration flacks Dan Senor and Dana Perino attacked a supposedly terrorism-tainted Saudi prince whose foundation might contribute to the Islamic center. But as “The Daily Show” keeps pointing out, these Fox bloviators never acknowledge that the evil prince they’re bashing, Walid bin Talal, is not only the biggest non-Murdoch shareholder in Fox News’s parent company (he owns 7 percent of News Corporation) and the recipient of Murdoch mammoth investments in Saudi Arabia but also the subject of lionization elsewhere on Fox." - Frank Rich

Read the entire article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?_r=1

And in case you don't believe Frank Rich.....

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100820/bs_yblog_upshot/news-corps-number-two-shareholder-funded-terror-mosque-planner

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/stewart-fox-prince-alwaleed_n_692234.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/19/jon-stewart-mosque_n_688546.html

char·la·tan [shahr-luh-tn] –noun a person who pretends or claims to have more knowledge or skill than he or she possesses; quack. Synonyms impostor, mountebank, fraud, fake, phony.

You are blind if you don't believe we have lost a sense of honor, self-responsibility, and have moved away from our principles. If we had honor in this country, our government officials, both dems and repubs, wouldn't have investigations for tax evasion, criminal conduct, etc...If Americans had personal responsibility we wouldn't have many of the problems that we are experiencing today. Our constitution is being shredded to pieces and we now have representatives stating that we don't need it and it is dated.

As far as Billionaires, let's look at George Soros and the SEIU, ACORN, Open Society Foundation, Tides Foundation, etc....There is corruption on both sides.

Cicero said in 55 BC that "the budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest ROME become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

Today...he would be most likely be blasted as a right wing extremist. I ask you just as I asked Dave from Iowa...what part of the rally was incorrect, or wrong? Many make the assumption that the people who attended the rally are stupid and ignorant...that is just as wrong as assuming that all democrats who voted in West Palm Beach in 2000 were stupid because they couldn't punch a ballot.

I don't agree with Al Sharpton on many of his discussions, but I respect the man. When confronted about the remarks he made about the rally he back pedaled 100%. Why? Because he could find no fault in what was done in D.C. The only thing that you can come up with is stupid mass of people, but again, I point out that the left is having a rally on 10/2/10 supposedly bring America together as one. Is this a mass of stupid people? I don't think so. If they truly are meeting for honor, peace, and bringing the nation together, then awesome. I bet that the left rally will be more about politics and bashing then you will admit to. If I am wrong....I apologize in advance.

If we had honor in this country, our government officials, both dems and repubs, wouldn't have investigations for tax evasion, criminal conduct, etc.

If this is your yardstick, then we have never had honor, as those activities are as old as the Republic. Hell, we were founded as a way of avoiding taxes.

babina...excellent point. On these discussion boards, if you pin a teabagger down on demand they enumerate the rights they've lost under any liberal administration, they will not do so because they cannot. It hasn't happened. That's when they often go to evasion plan B and blame Obama for not getting Bush's violations from wiretapping rescinded, apparently forgetting that nearly all of these right wingers stoutly defended Bush on this matter a few years ago. The limitless capacity for hypocrisy by them is rather awesome to behold.

Dave 42203: Great, your only response is to bring up Soros and some unions and a now defunct group that assisted the working poor? You can't compare Soros to the Koch brothers. Soros doesn't hide anything he does nor do democratic policies benefit him either on his personal wealth or business.

What would be helpful is if you could be more specific as to what part of our constitution has been shredded and provide facts to support your claim. What rights have you lost? What honor have you lost? Again, facts please.

Dave 42203

Our constitution is being shredded to pieces and we now have representatives stating that we don't need it and it is dated.

I'm no Obama supporter ... but I'm always intrigued when someone makes the leap of faith and refers to some shredding of the Constitution.

Can you enumerate the ways our Constitution is being shredded? I must be a bit less informed than you. I haven't lost any constitutional rights ... well, any since 2001.

I think is laughable about all our rights being taken away. January gun ammo was impossible to find because of the wingers fears.

Since then; Obama signed Executive Order allowing guns to be carried in National Parks. Something JR would not do. Several draconian gun restrictions have been over ruled by the SCOTUS. (Of course, you may claim it was JR's appointees that helped with that.)

Locally, more and more states are becoming 'shall issue' states. Iowa being the most recent.

When I think of my rights under fire I think White Rich Male Conservative who would LOVE to tell me to go to church on Sunday and make it mandatory. Well, it's implied...since I am not a true American as I do not believe.

Do as I say; Not as I do. Scary.

Dave - I'd say that you ARE a true American! A am a Christian and I do not care what you believe....so long as your love for this country is sincere. The rest is between you and God.

DLMaston:

Amen, to that, sir!!!

babina...excellent point. On these discussion boards, if you pin a teabagger down on demand they enumerate the rights they've lost under any liberal administration, they will not do so because they cannot. It hasn't happened. That's when they often go to evasion plan B and blame Obama for not getting Bush's violations from wiretapping rescinded, apparently forgetting that nearly all of these right wingers stoutly defended Bush on this matter a few years ago. The limitless capacity for hypocrisy by them is rather awesome to behold.

FJH ... teabagger? I can see where your maturity level lies.

Rights we've lost? Where do you want me to begin? Senators, per the Constitution, were to be chosen by State delegates, that's now gone.

Privacy is not a guarantee anymore for ALL Americans, thanks to the Patriot Act, which was signed into law, by Bush and expanded under Obama. Now anyone "suspected" of being a terrorist can be whisked away.

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

Under Obama he now allows Americans to be targeted by CIA drones if suspected of being a terrorist. Essentially now Americans have their right to due process of the law taken away.

Let's not forget about healthcare ... we now MUST buy healthcare, whether you can afford it or not, or face fine/jail.

Our government tells us where we can and can't have guns, although the Constitution flatout tells us ALL Americans have the right to bear arms.

Checkpoints ... cops can pull you over randomly during any checkpoint to search for anything they deem worthy, without search warrants.

Eminent Domain allows the government to seize your land for what they deem neccesary.

When you die the government has the right to tax whatever money you want to leave for your family.

Government has taken away the right to say the pledge of allegiance in schools.

It is unlawful in some places to display nativity scenes during Christmas, or to even say Merry Christmas ...

The Government has conducted immigration hearings in secret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were once open to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants have already been deported in secret.

Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office without showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significant purpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may also monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.

These are just a couple of things.

Good for you, Paul! YOu have done your homework. Others should be as thorough.

The movie "Idiocracy" is becoming prophetic. Where's my Brawndo?

uhh, it's got electrolytes? now we call them eBecktrolytes, though....

The movie "Idiocracy" is becoming prophetic.

I was thinking more like 1984.

HollyK:

Some of these people are stupid and some are ignorant!! Just because the Becks and Palins try to keep people ignorant doesn't mean that they cannot learn. They choose not to and follow like sheep even against their own self interest. Knowing better and still doing it, is stupidity!! Ignorance is when you do not know better!!!

cjn:

Oh, I don't deny there is some willfull ignorance here. My only concern is that the more we refer to these people as stupid, the less likely they are going to be to listen to anything we might have to say. And I am referring to Beck's followers here, not Beck himself. Beck is out for his own benefit and deserves to be called on his hypocrisy as often as possible. The sooner his backers can see through that BS the better.

Just because the Becks and Palins try to keep people ignorant doesn't mean that they cannot learn.

Wow ... the liberal machine hard at work. History shows it's not those on the right trying to keep the people ignorant, that would be the left. Sorry, the facts override opinions.

| Sorry, the facts override opinions.

Sorry, I don't see any actual facts in your post so I will take it as opinion only. And one that I disagree with.

Sorry, I don't see any actual facts in your post so I will take it as opinion only. And one that I disagree with.

Sorry you disagree with history, which shows the left has done a marvelous job of keeping people ignorant to the reality around them.

As if leaving the signs at home wasn't just another affirmation of their underlying crackpottery and fondness for the racial provocation. It highlighted the awareness by Beck the need to try to repress these primitive urges for the cameras.

.....oh boy......You know guys, it's one thing to have an opinion. It's another thing to ignore the truth. The truth is that this rally had nothing to do with politics. Any signs would have been political. There is a disconnect, to be sure.......but you seem to see only one.....I'm seeing at least two.

DLMaston - Pulllleeeeeze! If this rally was anything BUT political Beck and Palin would have been nowhere in sight. They were TOLD not to bring signs. Now THAT'S freedom of expression.

Good gawd, bubbs; if you had any self awareness that when you try to back up your nonsense with a crackpot right wing lie mill it actually makes your credibility even worse, as impossible as that may seem. You actually just demonstrated the reliability of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Hack, if Beck's rally is shocking by today's standards, how about Shabazz's rally? The left hates Beck but has no problem with Shabazz yelling out death threats and disturbing voters. The DOJ had the goods on him and failed to prosecute and ya'll are worried about a little ole peaceful rally in Washington and calling the participants stupid and ignorant. The author's racism is obvious.

WND is a weapon of neuronal destruction. For God's sake read something that's NOT written with a crayon.

For God's sake read something that's NOT written with a crayon.

L.O.L. Thanks for the laugh.

Hack, if Beck's rally is shocking by today's standards, how about Shabazz's rally?

Shocking? No. Not to me at least. A banal and pathetic spectacle of crackpottery, ohhhh yeah.

Hack, if Beck's rally is shocking by today's standards, how about Shabazz's rally?

Rally? Looked like twelve people taking a walk to me. And it didn't look like anyone was really paying them much notice.

Bubba:

The author's racism is obvious.

Do you even know what the word racism means??? Being stupid and/or ignorant has nothing to do with race!!! Go back to your own racist ideas, BUBBA; they have no place here!!

"Do you even know what the word racism means???" "Being stupid and/or ignorant has nothing to do with race!!!"

It means hatred of white people assembling in Washington. It means calling an entire group of people ignorant or stupid because they don't think like you think.

As yet, I haven't seen anyone say anything about the folks at the rally because of the color of their skin. Calling someone ignorant or stupid because you think they're ignorant or stupid is NOT racist. Did you get your definition from Faux "News"?

"Do you even know what the word racism means???" "Being stupid and/or ignorant has nothing to do with race!!!"

It means hatred of white people assembling in Washington. It means calling an entire group of people ignorant or stupid because they don't think like you think.

Ok, Bubba? Racism is not limited to "hatred of white people," first of all. Second, "calling an entire group of people ignorant or stupid because they don't think like you think" need not have anything to do with race. The people in question might simply be "ignorant and stupid." Now, if the group in question happens to be predominately white....that's a whole other can of worms.

Problem is, the D-K effect shows that the two traits often associate with each other so you really don't get a choice. Classic case in point: George W. Bush.

All of the results are short-term...

1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

and were concluded at the end of the test which was administered only for what Kruger and Dunning were looking for. All of the results still give me something to work with in the long term. The results have well established boundaries that can be identified as a starting point for progress in education, skill, etc. Because it failed to establish the participant's level of humility over time.

Case in point. I'm on a subway in Brooklyn. I'm from California. I look at a guy for a couple of seconds and he says "what the f**k are you lookin at." 15 minutes later we're having a conversation and he's inviting me to his house for a beer. The first minute would have identified him as an tough guy, ignorant of people different from him. His rough attitude changed over time.

The arrogance of Chauncey DeVega and other posters on this seed has no identifiable boundaries. It is so overwhelming that you can't see how arrogant you really are. There is a claim of superior knowledge of subjects, but everything you know about people you learned from books. When it comes to knowledge, a lack of humility renders knowledge useless in real world applications.

The Founders were fully aware that they were surrounded on all sides by stupid farmers and peasants but concluded in the formation of this country that even farmers and peasants want, and need, to be free. They were never so arrogant to assume, as liberals do, that freedom is reserved only for intellectuals.

So stupid can't be fixed - when it happens. But it can be fixed over time. Arrogance is a hopeless condition that has no remedy.

That's such a poorly constructed comparison that I don't even know if it's worth the bother to destroy, but here it is: unlike your scenario in which there was apparently a 15 minute period during which both parties somehow negotiated an understanding--in other words, not anything like a controlled experiment where the testers and subjects do not interact with one another and where there's an object analysis between how the subjects think they
performed and how they actually did. BTW,there were plenty of founders who openly felt that allowing for even the democracy that was provided by the Constitution was a recipe for disaster.

My observation narrowed in on 2 components - ignorance and time. I was the observer, it was in a controlled environment (the subway and his apartment) and the subject was aware of his performance at the end of my visit. If there was an outside observer not interacting with us, what else would they be able to conclude? Sometimes things really are what they appear to be.

And...

the Constitution was a recipe for disaster.

as in the "beautiful chaos" of capitalism?

The liberal mindset will never be able to accommodate the intellectual rigors posed by paradox and abstract reality. It's always looking for absolute order which is an impossibility.

VNJD ... they don't get it.

In all my life I've never seen such bs spewed, as I do on here. When reading what liberals seed, you have to be careful not to spend to much time on here ... there is a distinct possibility it could cost us all IQ points.

You can't be both an observer and a participant and call it "controlled" or a "study." You've actually illustrated the D-K effect in action. You think you know what a scientific experiment is but in fact don't have the slightest idea. IOW, you don't know what you don't know AND you still believe you're knowledgeable.

All very well, but there's no reason it can't apply to a political group--and a variety of them. I'm prepared to accept that one could find groups of generally liberal "types" to find the effect. In fact, the Wiki article did refer to it being operable among college professors, and we "know" that they're as liberal as it gets, right?

Or as I said above: we are all morons about something.

FrJack - As a conservative college type, I don't know what you could possibly mean! (J/K!!!!)

Your reply was the whole point. My point was not to infer that it cannot apply to any political group, but instead.....that it applies to ALL groups of ANY nature....in western culture.

It does not apply to any one side of an argument/discussion for ANY discipline any more than it does the other. So, it's like the old saying goes, "When you point your finger at somebody else, there are three fingers pointing back at you."

Maybe they got mixed up and meant to refer to the Downing Effect.

As you can tell, DL, we agree on that. On a side issue, do you mind if I ask you how you can be a conservatarian and a sociologist? It's been my understanding that people of your political leanings generally think sociologists and psychologists were all a bunch of dogooding, busybody, interfering liberal scolds and you practiced voodoo "science."

FrJack - Sure! To me, it's very similar to the question of how I call myself a Christian yet I do not believe in shoving my religion down the throats of others.

There are many people in my field that DO what you suggest. Many believe that it is somehow their job to solve everybody's problems. I, on the other hand, believe that it is our job to observe how social structures are created, why we create them, and how we can find ways to collectively evolve beyond them.

Sociology is (basically) a systematic study of the patterns of social interaction as they affect the individual, groups, and societies. It's concerned with how institutions and structures affect the individual and vice-verse. My personal areas of emphasis are in counseling and in issues of race/ethnicity/class/gender.

But, I think you'd have to agree that most of the people who share both your political and religious attitudes would tell you that what you do is a crock--if they were really being honest with you, right, DL?

Exactly right! The fact that the guy would quote wikipedia and then not have the common sense to give a proper citation might just verify that very point.

Thanks Frank! Please keep proving the point!

Your mastery of phonics is impressive. ;-)

Like Montgomery said to Rommel in the desert, "Tank you very much!"

Walking through life Godless and thinking YOU know everything and people who have faith in God are somehow "stupid"will not help you influence anyone with a brain and a heart.

I don't think people of faith are automatically stupid. However, it would be easy to draw that conclusion if one only considered the people interviewed in that video.

Not all "people of faith" (to use a "term of art" which is a phrase I hate--yes, Scott Simon, I'm talking about you) are anti-science but I'd venture to guess that nearly 100% of right wing evangelicals and fundamentalists are. It's not so much stupidity as deliberately induced ignorance, and almost a pride in it. They also have developed a tendency to denigrate and mock anyone who is learned in the sciences, as well as the liberal arts.

FrJack......you would be wrong. I can avow for the fact that there are lots of scientists, theorists, biochemists, ecologists that are right wing evangelical Christians....and no, there is no conflict between the two (meaning science and religion).

Just the facts: from Professor Ecklund, who teaches sociology at Rice University and is the author of a recently-released book, "Science vs Religion: What Scientists Really Think."

"scientists in general are much less likely than are members of the general population to identify as part of a traditional religion."

Fully 50 percent of the scientists she surveyed reported themselves as having no religious affiliation, compared to 16 percent of the general population.

Only about 2 percent of these scientists identified as evangelical Christians. Far more reported themselves as Jewish, but defined more by tradition than theistic belief.

^ this makes much more sense than DLMaston's claim. And I think the part about tradition rings true as well. I am a *practicing* catholic to the extent that I am raising my kids as I was raised. Truth be told I am agnostic and more of a fan of the Catholic church (I hear you snickering) than a player...and, oh yeah - I am an engineer/scientist.

I think the backlash against religion has more to do with the evangelical types parading their beliefs through bumper stickers and the fact that when you meet one, within 1 minute's worth of conversation they start talking about God and how religious/pious/whatever they are. That is the big tun off for most folks.

My mom was a devout christian, mass every day, wake up early to pray, prayer groups, inter-faith groups, peace activism, volunteered to help old folks, etc. But if you met her, you would never know it because she did not feel the need to advertise it. That is how you do it - just shut up and do it!

I am quite familiar with Prof. Ecklund's research. She's very good! However, the quote's you've lifted are slightly out of context. Read this.....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-19-column19_ST_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

You will find the quote you lifted under the subtitle "The Myths" in this article. You will also find this quote (and I encourage you to read the full article for proper context);

"In fact, nearly half of scientists said they consider themselves religious; one in five was involved in a house of worship. Top scientists are sitting in our country's churches, temples and mosques."

Her book is very good, and she will be receiving her doctorate shortly.

It is amazing how many scientists have embraced Christianity. Having had conversations with many in academia, they all have drawn the same conclusion-All of the intricasies of the universe(s) cannot be explained by chance. One event/creation might occur by chance, but not all. The mainstream media will not report this, but it is happening. Christianity is based on this-God sent his only Son to die for us. He took all of our sins and nailed them to the cross. If there was only one person on this earth, he would have died for that one person. He died so that we could live. God is holy and cannot abide with sin. That is why he gave Jesus Christ to us. Christianity is accepting this, asking forgiveness. God's holy spirit, then abides in us and leads/guides us through this earthly life. However, Christianity involves prayer, Bible study, and "works". It is tough. But how wonderful to know that this life is not "the end". It is wonderful to know that my life is not a haphazered array of events. It is NOTHING I deserve or can earn. It is a gift of God. That is why Christians want to share this. They want other people to share in this joy. They don't want to keep this to themselves, when they see so many hurting people in this world. It's also about an "eternal perspective". This life is nothing compared to eternity with God. The life, and yes the resurrection of Christ can be proven. Christianity is freeing and joyful, because we have assurance (not of our doing) of a Saviour who is with us and in control, If we allow him and obey his Word. Christianity is the only religion that "boasts" of a risen Saviour, so I would assume that this is the greatest cause of excitement in the Christians you see. Christ said that "true" Christians would be laughed at, ridiculed, mocked, and persecuted. But they know the true joy of living, and that this is for eternity.

A recent Pew poll using scientists gave results: 55% indicated Democrat; 6 % Republican. Too bad religion wasn't included.

As I said, the main stream media does not always give us all the information we need-such as sample size and sample population.

Yes, that's why true Christians should seek the truth through Scripture, prayer, and sevice.

DL, you wrote:

I can avow for the fact that there are lots of scientists, theorists, biochemists, ecologists that are right wing evangelical Christians

And I would still maintain that that still makes up such a small percentage of the fundamentalist and evangelical "bloc" in the country that my estimate of nearly 100% who are science deniers is accurate. Incidentally, I just finished reading a profile of Francis Collins, President Obama's appointee for the head of NIH is a fundamentalist Christian who's very committed to good science, especially in the area of embryonic stem cell research so I take you point.

Unfortunately, I think you are right.

That is one of the most irresponsible comments I've ever read. Trying to compare ANYBODY to Jim Jones and his horrific cult! You should be ashamed of yourself. Did you even read the article this thread is based off of? You think that millions of people are "missing something in their poor, sick, and confused lives" simply because they disagree with your own opinion??

.......textbook.......

That is one of the most irresponsible comments I've ever read. Trying to compare ANYBODY to Jim Jones and his horrific cult! You should be ashamed of yourself.

It's no different than comparing President Obama with terrorists, and Adolph Hitler and both murdered many, because these statements are equally "irresponsible." If you don't have a problem with this, than feel free not to have any problems with what I wrote.

So....and please correct me if I am wrong but, it sounds as if you are actually saying that is OK for you to make irresponsible comparatives to support your beliefs, because others make equally irresponsible claims? Did I interpret that correctly?

Their shameful act makes your shameful act OK. That seems plain enough.....

this is........TEXTBOOK.......

#26.2:It's no different than comparing President Obama with terrorists, and Adolph Hitler and both murdered many, because these statements are equally "irresponsible." If you don't have a problem with this, than feel free not to have any problems with what I wrote.

You are absolutely correct! I agree with you! How can they compare our American President, Barack Obama, with murderers, nihilists and killers, but they can chide you for comparing beckwards to Jim Jones? I can see the analogy as you do; what is the difference beside the names of the guilty parties here? This is a true example of hypocrisy at its best!

beckward wants his followers to OBEY him [leave your signs and guns home THIS time] the same as Jim Jones did and go off the cliff- -with him. But of course, beckwards will have a parachute that will open just in the nick of time! It will not surprise me if this moron beckwards doesn't try to isolate his sheep to leave everything and follow him to HELL!