Holder's Comments on Black Fathers Cause Controversy

Actually, you are wrong. Black men ARE largely responsible for this mess that exists within the Black community, sorry to say it. I know we like to pass the blame onto the women, but the truth is plain as day, and until MEN finally step up to the plate, nothing will ever change. As much as we like to blame all the fatherless children on out of wedlock relationships, then how do you explain that more than half of all black marriages end in divorce, and MOST of those fathers (not women having children out of wedlock) are NOT involved in their children's lives. Most of them are leaving their wives and their marriages, AND leaving the children with them. And yes, sometimes these women are left overwhelmed with 3 or 4 or more kids that she had planned to raise with her husband, but unable to do so on her own, the GRANDMOTHERS (not usually grandparents, because grandfather has often skipped out on the family already - see the pattern here) have to step in to help care for some of the kids. So, as much as you may want to make it seem like the problem is out-of-wedlock relationships, or women having children with men who don't have good jobs, etc. it's not. It's men not taking responsibility. Whether they are married, not married, doctors, lawyers, bankers, auto mechanics, or sales clerks - the problem of men not stepping up to the plate and leaving fatherless children for mothers to raise doesn't seem to know any boundaries within the Black community. So, let's just keep it real here. People that are offended by Holder's comments are offended because they don't want to acknowledge the truth. Yes, there are wonderful men and fathers out there that go above and beyond, but let's not act like we don't all know that those men are in the minority. If they weren't, there wouldn't be this discussion.

Really? Much of this is about unmarried couples who get pregnant. There are many things available to poeple, such as birth control and failing that, choice. It does take two people to tango. You cannot lay this at the feet of men only. Leaving a marriage is a lot differnet than 'hooking up' and dealing with the consequences of that.

I would like to see facts/links to what you are saying. I don't have a lot of use for the A.G., but he is taking this subject head-on, for which he deserves recognition, but, there needs to be recognition that there is more to the equation than just young black men.

Men who make a concious choice to walk out on their family and not support them are lowlifes and deserve all of our contempt. But there's another side to the equation. What about black women who have multiple out of wedlock births and all the children have different fathers? You already have one child that you can't take care of, and now you have more? When does that women take responsibility for her choices? Many young women get pregnant thinking it will tie that man to her forever when it actually does the opposite. I'm not excusing the irresponsible choice of that man who had unprotected sex with the woman, but it was the woman's choice also. As long as we blame only the men, nothing will change. Women have more control over their bodies and birth control options than ever in our nation's history. Yet black women lead the country in out of wedlock births. " Just keeping it real."

With all due respect, marriage has nothing to do with it - unmarried mothers and fathers successfully raise children all the time, with both parents involved. It's time to get "out of wedlock" out of your vocabulary. For some people marriage is still relevant; for others it is not. When approximately half of all marriages in the United States end in divorce, having children inside or outside of "wedlock" is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that a child have the love and support (not just financial but as a minimum financial) of both parents.

I suspect those who object to Mr. Holder's comments are objecting because they recognize their own failings in his words: there are too many children growing up without their fathers. (But they're not all black.)

"Out of wedlock" doesn't cover it. My sister-in-law has had 3 children by 3 different husbands. She was married to the first guy for 8 years then he got sent to prison and she got a divorce. She was married to the second guy for 3 years before they got divorced. She was married to the third guy for 3 years before they too got divorced. Of the 3 former husbands only the first wants to maintain any sort of relationship with his child but he's still in prison. My sister-in-law is the type who doesn't believe in having sex outside of marriage, so I can only guess that there will be a husband #4.

As much as we like to blame all the fatherless children on out of wedlock relationships, then how do you explain that more than half of all black marriages end in divorce, and MOST of those fathers (not women having children out of wedlock) are NOT involved in their children's lives.

Because essentially 3 out of every four blacks babies are born out of wedlock. The U.S divorce rate tops 50 percent for all demographics, so while it is a problem, it is not *the* problem that leads to fatherlessness among black kids.

What about black women who have multiple out of wedlock births and all the children have different fathers? You already have one child that you can't take care of, and now you have more? When does that women take responsibility for her choices?

They deserve society's scorn as much as absentee fathers do.

. But there's another side to the equation. What about black women who have multiple out of wedlock births and all the children have different fathers?

Those women are usually the daughters of absentee fathers. And so the cycle continues.

Right on PG. How can divorce be the major problem in the black community with the number of out of wedlock births they have? They simply never marry; this would cease their government check they receive for the child, as the father could then be held accountable. They choose to go with the one they can depend on for a check...which is NOT the sperm donor, but the government. This is a perpectual cycle that can only be broken with education, combined with a government program of accountability. Take the politicians out (whose main concern is keeping their voters happy) and replace them with scientists who know how to solve problems. Although the problem would get solved, there would be an absolute uprising from those who are accustomed to getting a free ride at the taxpayer's expense.

What is frustrating is that Holder speaking the truth has ruffled feathers within the African American community. If it hurts, then there is some truth to it. Had he said that about caucasian men, I guarantee no one would have questioned his comments.

Noone believes that there is not truth to it...there is some truth to any overgeneralization. The ruffled feathers are that there isn't an equivalent example of an authority figure of any other race doing the same to address those races negative stereotypes (in history). Could you picture a Rudy Guliani going after the peculiarities of Italians this way? Actually what you hear them doing is attacking stereotypical depictions of those races on TV and boycotting (not just a Black word) those sources. Again, there is some truth to every overgeneralization. You aren't being very truthful with yourself if you are saying noone would have questioned comments coming from this AG directly targeted at Caucasian men...I don't need to say anything more about that one.

The reality is that the majority of women on welfare and children in the DCF system are african american.

False. I've heard it said best this way about that and similar perceptual disparities about poverty and broken homes:

"It rests on the notion that the white poor are not merely the white poor, but white trash. It's a formula makes an anchor of black America, straps it to a larger population of poor white Americans and then drops them in the Mississippi. It's a con that asks large swaths of white folks to suffer poverty in shame and silence."
Source: There are no poor white people

While all men do need to step up to the plate and be fathers, addressing only one group is not grounds for a witch hunting. Leave him alone and let him say what's on his mind. I agree with him.

It isn't about agreeing with him...of course there's truth to his words. Like I said, people are selective about what's ok when it comes to singling out a race. I commented on a poster on an article about the Carolina Senator's comments the other day. This poster argued his position against health care reform saying it was Obama's way of handing out reparations to African Americans! So you see, a comprehensive plan aimed at poverty NOT race isn't even safe from a witch hunt...but this is ok? These people with ruffled feathers are pretending to not notice these types of undertones and opposition to every proposal that would incidentally affect positive change in their communities by some significant proportion, but they are supposed to allow themselves to painted into Holder's picture of African American males without at least a rebuttal?

It's the same sentiment that conservatives seem to collectively have about Obama's "apology tour" as they call it. None expect any foreign policy significant return from accepting American being portrayed in such a posture.

While it's difficult to lump all recipients of state aid together, the average recipient of Aid to Dependant Children in MY state is 34, has 2.5 children, has some college, has not worked outside the home since the birth of her first child, has been divorced for less than 2 years, and has no support being collected from the children's one father. She is also white. Yes, men need to step up and be father's. All of them.

What is frustrating is that Holder speaking the truth has ruffled feathers within the African American community

I see from the article that Boyce Watkins' feathers are ruffled. The article doesn't quote anyone else with ruffled feathers.

Had he said that about caucasian men, I guarantee no one would have questioned his comments.

I don't believe that for a nanosecond:). Now, I'm going to mention this, but I'm not going to get into a whole...thing about it with anyone, so anyone who wants to argue about will have to argue with someone else:). Holder talked about all kinds of Americans being "cowards" on the subject of race, but many whites very willfully insisted he was talking about whites exclusively, and ripped him apart. Don't tell me that if he had said that, or anything else non-flattering about white men, that many of them wouldn't have questioned his comments.

Going back to what he actually did say, though...the idea that it has or would "ruffle feathers", i.e., get all or most of the black community in an uproar, is just rhetoric on your part. It's not true in this instance, and you know what? It wasn't even true in the instance of Bill Cosby's speech. That's the narrative that people like you have made up, for your own purposes.

The reality is that the majority of women on welfare and children in the DCF system are african american.

Sorry Roy, but the numbers support the above statement. However, it may be incorrectly stated since the percentage of blacks in the DCF are well above that for any other race in our nation, including the immigrants that came here unable to even speak the language (speaking mostly for the Asian community).

Tchem, so again, the use of the infrared beam on this is misplaced. Until you are in a position to rationally/objectively analyze and FIX root causes to such a problem, laser pinpointing out trends is an insulting act of futility. Objectivity is about a lot more than remaining politically correct and propping up statistics...otherwise it's the same old soap-box-finger-waving-lip service. Holder doesn't seem to know this either. If he is speaking on the issue as if such a epidemic, he should be proposing epidemic measures. But like I said, noone wants to have those converstions.

You correct Groove, however, when approaching a problem one must look at the statistics. This allows a focused solution to the most needed part of our society. If that happens to be white females, or black males, or hispanic males, or whoever...the statistics speak for themselves. This does not infer that everyone in that particular group exhibits that particular behavior being studied. Since the cultures of different groups can be vastly different themselves, it is imperative we understand the culture we are dealing with. Since the percentages are the highest for this part of the population, this would be a good start. The majority of black males do not exhibit the responsible behavior required to exist in a civilized society that depends on responsible behavior. We are not asking the black man to support our entire country, just his own family and children...the same as we should expect for any race.

The majority of black males do not exhibit the responsible behavior required to exist in a civilized society that depends on responsible behavior.

You have zero credibility...do you actually believe this?

Believe it?? Nothing to believe Roy, I was just stating what the statistics show. It was stated a little harsh though wasn't it? Which statistic would you like to look at?....illigitimate children, fatherless homes, education, incarceration, employment? More young black males have served time than have college degrees or have military service. Over 70% out of wedlock kids?? I am not making a judgemental call against anyone; just stating the statistics. You do realize that more than 50% constitutes a 'majority'. Want to see what the educated black community is saying about the crisis??...read the following

In what is being called "the nation's worst crisis in the history of the Black family," hearing participants attributed the degenerating situation to the particularly disturbing plight of young African-American men, half of whom are now unemployed, and have 30 percent chance of serving time in prison before age 30. And among Black men who drop out of high school-which is estimated at 40 percent--the situation is worse. Of those, 72 percent are jobless, and the likelihood of being incarcerated jumps to 60 percent. Seven out of every 10 African-American children are born out of wedlock, according to testimony given by a leading social policy researcher during a Joint Economic Committee hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. ...Jet magazine 2007

By the way, I am an educated black male that simply calls it as I see it. This does not mean that I am proud of these statistics; actually they disgust me. However, they do provide me with the motivation to continue to use my talents to recruit, train, and educate the black males of today. So, to answer your question...yes, I believe valid census data, even if it does shine a dim light on my own race/gender.

By the way Roy...my statistics involve YOUNG black males (ages 18-30), which I should have specified on my statement you quoted. My line of work does not involve older black males, but I do not need an education to tell me that the ones who are responsible for raising these young black males are their fathers, not their mothers alone, grandmothers, aunts, etc. Notice all these I mentioned are female relatives; I wonder where the 'man' is in this deal? A total collapse of the family structure is the epidemic this nation faces; for ALL races. It just happens that the worst statistics by far fall in the hands of the black male.

Funny how easy it is for the military to take males from ALL sections of society and do in a few short months what the black fathers aren't doing over a lifetime; which is provide the training and example of how responsible, disciplined men are suppose to act and lead! Can't support your own children??..sign up for the military. Not only will this provide the financial child support the man is responsible for, but it will also train him how to be a man...because the statistics show the 'majority' of young black males have yet to figure this one out.

Funny how easy it is for the military to take males from ALL sections of society and do in a few short months what the black fathers aren't doing over a lifetime; which is provide the training and example of how responsible, disciplined men are suppose to act and lead!

Gee, I thought I was in an all volunteer military all of those years. I should be more thankful for having been rescued./s/ Trust me, the military is not babysitting anyone or performing miracles on some shapeless minds...people do get shown the door if they don't perform. I can also tell you that blacks and other minorities are significantly overrepresented in the military...can't mention that one though.

I was just stating what the statistics show.

In my undecided undergrad years, I managed to subject myself to statistics in 3 disciplines as I jumped majors. The only common theme between them was garbage in = garbage out. Studies are conducted with a purpose from the outset to say the very least, and data gathering and analysis will reflect the same. The statistics are indeed ugly...and they also don't match up with what I've seen with my own eyes simply looking back upon the place from which I came. No, that picture isn't pretty either, but I was forced to step down off of my high horse of thinking that I had accomplished what I was led to believe couldn't be accomplished without leaving home for 20 years of military service...a false picture formulated by statistics that tell you that there is nothing but evil and despair in the black community. I wouldn't begin to sit here and defend the negatives of an entire race based on any statistics that I could produce. I think it is equally foolish to broad brush condemn based upon such as well.

The issues that you itemized as being owned by the black community alone are not. That's a fact that I don't need to trust in anyone else's statistics to speak with confidence. Having said that, if the Attorney General wants to address these issues affecting Americans, he can put his money where his mouth is, and produce a contributing solution instead of more of the same condescending broad brush rhetoric. Realistically, it will require some cost, but if he can rub two nickels together and produce the holy grail, then where is it? But, I can tell you that won't happen. Even healthcare reform was attacked as a veiled attempt by this administration to provide reparations to African Americans. So, again we are left with a bunch of successful individuals preaching atop soap boxes and providing ammunition for those whose only goal in life is to spread these statistics and stregthen overgeneralizations.

Which statistic would you like to look at?....illigitimate children, fatherless homes, education, incarceration, employment? More young black males have served time than have college degrees or have military service. Over 70% out of wedlock kids?? I am not making a judgemental call against anyone; just stating the statistics. You do realize that more than 50% constitutes a 'majority'. Want to see what the educated black community is saying about the crisis??

There was another study published not too long ago that attempted to correlate higher teen pregnancy with bible thumping low income states. Here it was a numerical ranking by state, showing the incidences of teen pregnancy. This only highlights that there are other factors besides race in the socioeconomic picture of teen pregnancy, broken homes. But just to entertain this thought for a second...what truth could there be to the notion that deeply religious or spiritual poor people have a tendency to exercise less long-term planning? But guess where the comments in that thread veered off towards.... Comments like: "I'd like to see the racial breakdown of those numbers." I can tell you that in the top 5 bible thumping ranked red state on that list where I live, blacks are truly in the minority and the plump teen bellies are distributed accordingly. But the constant bombardment says that the bad guys only wear black...logic be damned.

The same socioeconomic ties have been made regarding crime as well. When statistics of crime are broken down into economic factors (influencing everything from education to employment), the scales are far more even. Sure the conversation gets old, and many at this time in history want to accuse people of making excuses when you point these things out, but they are cyclic and will continue without intervention. You cannot possibly think that the only opportunities to break these cycles that the poor deserve are found on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. Can you? If that's the prevailing wisdom, then I definitely wouldn't expect anything to change. Recruitment alone depends upon maintaining the status quo.

I hesitate to identity as a simple matter of laziness.

That's a start. But people will dismiss any other conversation into addressing root causes as just making excuses or seeking something for nothing, redistribution of wealth, or handouts...ANY conversation. So what you are left with is just another set of empty words from someone individually successful who has yet to achieve anything concretely significant in addressing the problem. Another "ok we get it...you're not one of them" moments.

If we are not supposed to have those aforemetioned concrete solution conversations in return, then he needs to just shut up and get to work as an AG.

fathers' rights)

Any piece of @!$%# that would write that vile murder-endorsing hate spew is not a father and certainly not a MAN. Maybe just a male.

DISGUSTING.

Any piece of @!$%# that would write that vile murder-endorsing hate spew is not a father and certainly not a MAN. Maybe just a male.

Agreed. Sorry, putting a disclaimer at the top of such a post does not make it even a hair less vile. People like you do for the father's rights movement what Valeria Solanas did for the feminist movement; drive away even the best-intentioned readers who might otherwise be amenable to persuasion. I personally think the father's rights movement, or part of it anyways, has some important points to make; you do nothing but discredit and dishonor that movement with your hatred.

A 'father's rights' movement started quite some time ago to get men more access to their children, back when courts always favored maternal custody and less paternal visitation. And that was the right thing to do - it brought more balance to the system, getting dads more involved with their kids.

@!$%#heads who don't want to pay their fair share for the children they bring into this world are not working for 'father's rights' but out of sheer vicious hatred for women and children - their children. The 'thinning of the herd' comment was sociopathic indeed. That's real 'parent' material right there.

I find the faact that four people have endorsed his psychopathic tirade rather disturbing, too.

A 'father's rights' movement started quite some time ago to get men more access to their children, back when courts always favored maternal custody and less paternal visitation. And that was the right thing to do - it brought more balance to the system, getting dads more involved with their kids.

Yep, though I'd add that not all of the goals of the father's rights movement have been achieved, and they remain relevant. This isn't the forum to list the various causes of the movement, but they continue to advocate for changes in the paying of child support, the decision of to whom to grant custody, and the differences in maternity and paternity leave, among others. Some of these grievances I think are legitimate, some less so, but regardless it's a valuable movement. Also, while we're doing pretty well in those areas inside the US, in a shocking number of supposedly civilized, equal-opportunity countries women have presumptive custody of children; that's objectively a pretty horrifying form of discrimination.

@!$%#heads who don't want to pay their fair share for the children they bring into this world are not working for 'father's rights' but out of sheer vicious hatred for women and children - their children.

I'd argue that it has nothing to do with hatred, and much more to do with greed; the simple desire to hold on to one's money seems a lot more likely to be the cause of people shirking the costs of child support than any generalized hatred of women or children.

The 'thinning of the herd' comment was sociopathic indeed. That's real 'parent' material right there.

I don't think you'll find any argument there. That was a awfully worrying post in a couple of different ways.

Wow. Somebody sure is bitter! Sounds like a whole lot of hatred and venom being unleashed...

I've been trying to think what it reminds me of, and then I stumbled across this:

http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

And I agree with 7.4; who are those people who keep giving him +1? Very scary.

While the tone is ugly, I think people have voted for the grain of truth buried inside. Men have gotten a raw deal in regards to child support,visitation etc. and perhaps absentee fathers are in some cases a result of men being unwilling to take part in a system that has biases toward them.

this troll's been dormant a while

Well my wife and i have four of our own children and we are also raising three of my brothers children. I am a Black man. I very well educated black man. I am a Marine Officer with 18 + years and still counting. I don't know what happened to my brother but he chooses to be with women like himself, lazy and worthless. People like my brother and the women he is with are just drains on all of us. It is not the children's fault in no way. It is the two parents fault. My three nephews we have had them all since they were very little. They are 18,17,15. No telling how many more are running around out there we know nothing about. We have got to start making these parents responsible for their actions. My brother comes around maybe once a year. He does not even acknowledge his own children when he is at my house. My nephews know who he is and don't want anything to do with him. There mothers because each one has a different mother don't ever come around. I love my nephews and i want the best for them. Problem is look at all those other children that were not as lucky as my nephews are to have someone like my wife and i. No telling where they would be not to mention no telling how many children they would have. We have got to get a handle on all these people having these children. We can not keep just giving these people free Government assistance and just adding more assistance each time they have another child.

Not only are you a good father... You are a good man. May God bless you and your wife for what you do. I also have family members who are lacking in their own responsibilities. :(

Kenny,

it is people like you and your wife that make a huge difference in the lives of others. You are a good man, and I agree with Mrs D, may God bless you and your wife for everything you are doing in the lives of your children, and your brothers children. :-)

Kenny:

You are to be commended for taking care of your brothers children. Also your statement gets right to the crux of the matter and pretty much explains a major flaw in our assistance program as well as our society. Wonderful post, thanks!!

It also might be helpful to stop having babies with these dudes.

Right ruthless i agree, to a point the female needs to be held responsible for her decisions. I know it takes 2 to make a baby, but all to often the only one that is forced to have to take care of it is the woman, and that is a choice that she alone makes. We all know that in a perfect world they would step up to the plate and do the right thing, but here in the real world that doesnt happen. So women also need to be realistic in their expectations. In that if they know they cant take care of that baby by themselves they shouldnt have it, but more importantly shouldnt be spreading her legs risking it. I know some will say that I am betraying my fellow women with my attitude, but I am realistic and all to often these ladies arent. The want someone to take care of them, when in actuality most of the men that are hooking up with cant even take care of themselves.

indeed!..... I don't understand how people are having so many kids accidentally. It's not that hard to NOT ahve kids.

Paddy

I have been advocating a neutering program for a long time. Not only for mothers who can not take care of these children but for the deadbeat dads.

Thank you Paddie for calling out that stat. Everybody likes to blame the history of injustice for the plight of many blacks today, when in reality, black families were considerably more intact before laws were put in place to make punishable racial discrimination against blacks. The intergenerational poverty that we see today is not the result of prejudice but of the moral breakdown and decline of the black family. Today's kids have opportunity but lack the tools to succeed thanks to their homelives, whereas in the past, the homelives set them up for success given the opportunity.

I have been advocating a neutering program for a long time.

You serious ?! If yes, you do need to get help ....

Thank you Paddie for calling out that stat.

Thanks Pipergirl, the original report can be accessed here. What is troubling is the fact that when the out-of-wedlock births was close to 25%, it was considered a crisis. Today, when we consider that the 70% of births in the Black community is out-of-wedlock what should we make of it ?! The word catastrophe comes to mind.

These are facts. What is galling is the response to what Holder suggested. From the seed article :

In a recent article on bvblackspin.com, Boyce Watkins, Ph.D., wrote that Holder denigrated absentee fathers.

“Rather than talking about things that we can do as a society to take our collective foot off the necks of Black men, he chose to point out that Black men are largely responsible for their own disenfranchisement,” Watkins wrote.

Really ?! Society has it's collective foot on the necks of Black men ?! I wonder, do these people even think before they say such drivel .... And Holy S%^t, does this guy have a PhD ?!

"Rather than talking about things that we can do as a society to take our collective foot off the necks of Black men, he chose to point out that Black men are largely responsible for their own disenfranchisement," Watkins wrote.

Really ?! Society has it's collective foot on the necks of Black men ?! I wonder, do these people even think before they say such drivel .... And Holy S%^t, does this guy have a PhD ?!

Well, this guy obviously isn't really interested in the plight of black men nor of at risk black people in general. If he were, he would be happy to address, and see addressed, problems in whatever form they exist -- including those that are self-inflicted.

I was going to say that Watkins' PhD is probably in African-American studies, but it seems that his real problem with Holder's comments is that he, Watkins, had a child out of wedlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyce_Watkins). I guess Holder's comments hit a little too close to home.

WildWonderful, I am with you 110%. These types will continue to bounce one baby out right after another.

I have always said we have to have a license to drive a motor vehicle. A license to be a doctor, to fly a plane or to be an electrician. We have to have a license for mostly everything.

Why not require a license to have children? If both parents don't pass that test, then both are disqualified. Certainly having a stable job would be one of those qualifications. And having the psychological ability to raise a child would be another.

If they go on to have a child anyway, then they are placed on a farm to pick fruit for 18 years, at minimum wage, to help take care of that child, until that child is an adult.

If they have another child then it's back to picking fruit for another 18 years but additionally they are sterilized.

I do think that people who receive assistance from the government in any form ought to have to pay that money back. There should be no free rides and also no longer-term inability to support oneself and family.

If you can't support yourself, you should have kids. If you do have kids without being able to support yourself, you have x amount of time to get on your feet. If you fail to get on your feet, you lose the kids.

Frankly, getting kids out of that environment is the best thing that could happen for them. Breaking the cycle requires starting with the kids and starting with the kids means removing them from that destructive setting so their world view can be oriented more normally. But as long as every loser has three kids and those kids have three kids, this situation will only compound over time. We're seeing this now with the rapid increase of out-of-wedlock births over the last 40 years. And then following on from the absence of fathers, the high rates of criminaltiy and other anti-social behaviors.

There is nothing to be gained by not only allowing, but enabling this situation to propagate. Drastic situations require drastic action. Get the kids out of the situation before that mindset becomes ingrained in them. And here's the hard part: recognize that it is already too late for some of the older kids. Focus on the ones who can be saved as weel as the means by which to accomplish it.

That sounds great Piper but who gets to take care of those kids you remove ? The Foster Care system is already flooded with children who need homes now, and trying to get those children in to your home is pure hell when dealing with their "system".

The education has to start with the parents. If you give them the tools and the resources they need to be successful guess what ? They just might succeed. Until the mindset of others taking care of the problems goes away this will never change. These young girls need to learn respect for themselves and their bodies. How can a teen girl change a behavior if she doesn't even realize what she is doing is wrong .. and not normal !

"Black women have the highest teen pregnancy rate (134 per 1,000 women aged 15-19), followed by Hispanics (131 per 1,000) and non-Hispanic whites (48 per 1,000)." Source (2006)

A significant portion of the high pregnancy rates is because of welfare.

Consider that delivery procedures are considered emergency and are performed free of charge by hospitals hence illegals can afford the half a dozen kids they usually have runnign around. I remember when I used to be in Washington and was amazed to see Hispanics (mostly illegals of course), going about with broods of 4 - 5 kids while we were struggling with paying the hospital bills for just 2 (we had insurance and were paying a part of it out of pocket for part of the procedures).

Also, the state is increasingly taking over the medical needs of children with the expansion of SCHIP (whose definition of children is, beleive it or not, in some cases is children aged up to 30 years). Take a wiiillllld guess who will be paying for these government programs .....

Thus, any kid either born too early or out of wedlock is pretty much set for life as far his/her needs are concerned i.e. birth -> Free medical care takes care of delivery, Food -> food stamps, shelter -> doesn't matter, education -> public schooling and so on. Where is the incentive to properly care for and raise the children and give them the best.

Coming to the topic at hand. Notice that from a rate of 25% of out-of-wedlock births to 70% today, it would be safe to assume that a significant portion of black males and females were already born out of wedlock. Thus, why are they not "learning" from their experiences growing up in an uprooted environment ? Why is the dropout rates for blacks close to 50% in schools? The answer is a failure of family and the value system. And critical appraisals by leaders like Holder or Bill Cosby are met with defensive anger, not as a call to action. Here's a rather painful and sad part of his speech which affected me a lot :

Fifty percent drop out rate, I’m telling you, and people in jail, and women having children by five, six different men. Under what excuse? I want somebody to love me. And as soon as you have it, you forget to parent. Grandmother, mother, and great grandmother in the same room, raising children, and the child knows nothing about love or respect of any one of the three of them. All this child knows is “gimme, gimme, gimme.” These people want to buy the friendship of a child, and the child couldn’t care less. Those of us sitting out here who have gone on to some college or whatever we’ve done, we still fear our parents. And these people are not parenting. They’re buying things for the kid -- $500 sneakers -- for what? They won’t buy or spend $250 on Hooked on Phonics.

That's the million dollar question, EJ. What to do with the kids. Sadly, I don't have an anwer. I just know that the current situation, the so-called solution -- paying people who already aren't doing the right thing to continue to do the wrong thing is ruining countless lives.

The problem with the education answer is that people who are uneducated are that way by choice. You can take a horse to water... As long as some of these people can influence future generations, they will encourage those younger folks to follow in their ways. They are happy to live the way they do.

As was posted earlier, the out-of-wedlock birthrate was a fraction of what it is today, as recently as forty years ago. So what happened? The government paid the least successful blacks in society to continue in their unsuccessful ways. In fact, the government rewarded them for it. The outcome: 3/4 kids born out of wedlock, rampant crime, anti-social behaviors and attitudes. I don't know how to do what needs to be done, but I do know that we have to stop doing what we're currently doing.

We also need to stop with the guilt: racism doesn't make people have kids out of wedlock, it doesn't make people prey on their neighbors, it doesn't make kids drop out of school. America's ugly past isn't repsonsible for what is happening today. We should find solutions because doing so is the right thing to do, not because we feel responsible for the situation.

The problem with the ghetto mentality isn't a lack of money, but a lack of drive and sense of responsibility. We should also recognize that some people will always be bottom dwellers. Nobody benefits when you enable folks who fall into this category. We can clearly see the outcome.

So no, I don't know where to put the kids, but leaving them where they are condemns them to a fate that some would consider almost as bad, if not worse, than death.

Paddy

So you want to continue subsidizing more and more illegitimate kids ???

This isn't just a black thing either.

Therein lies the problem with Holder framing it as such. People like Holder have been speaking up and speaking out for a long time...and that's all they do...podium or pulpit leadership. He and others like him so willing to stand on the soap box and talk down, CAN do more. Why doesn't he call Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and others to task and question their actual commitments to improving situations in the communities instead of chasing TV spots? Instead of the grand round of applause, next time someone in the crowd ask these leaders and celebrities when they open these comments for some ideas and hold them to some implementable details...i'm thinking they would grow suddenly silent...or put out a rap album like Bill Cosby. Holder's done no favors here if he doesn't follow through with something concrete and meaningful. People are too closed minded and some all too eager to cheerlead his words with no care of making anything better. "There, my disdain is justified...Holder said so!" - is all that some will take from it. It's a forever polarized situation i'm convinced.

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He should have reminded them that a man will not respect easy women. This has always been true.

And these particular men have become very adept at getting what they want from women who are quick to give because they are looking for help and favor.

Good job there pushing the blame back to the women.

Never mind that it's a bigger problem than one of assigning blame.

Kate---As I said, both are to blame. Not sure how you missed that. Do you not see that responsibility and blame in this situation are equally shared?

It takes courage to accept earned blame and change your life, and the way you think and behave.

Just what I was trying to say earlier. Women are not totally blameless. As long as the sex was consensual, both share blame. To be sure, women pay a higher price because they are raising these children alone. Nobodys saying that Mr. Holders observation on the situation isn't true because it is. But there are always two sides of a story. The other is the poor choices young women often make when it comes to relationships,sex, and having children.

blindsided: Well said.

And the lion's share of the pain from the adult bs.....suffered by the children and the absolutely dismal start they have in life when they are born to two immature and selfish adults.

Just as who did to Mr. Cosby?

Mr. Holder points out people are going to call him names, defame him and personally insult the man - just as they did to Mr. Cosby.

I don't think people will call him names. But he is in a much better position to do more than just record a rap album like Bill Cosby did after indicating how fed up he was with conditions. Maybe just a military mindset of mine, but usually when you point out problems, you follow up with implementable solutions. I'm not talking the usual "we need to stops" and "we need to starts." I'm talking about: "Here's the problem, and as Attorney General here's what i'm doing about it." If he expects such a challenge, he should have preemptively implicated those people by name in his plans for his solutions...but he has none.

You are right on kb, but we must realize we are dealing with a culture that is unlike any normal, responsible behavior you would expect from a civilized society. To many of them, the "no good, shiftless, and lazy" are exactly what they find attractive. Although this is about as far from a definition of a "man" that one can get, to the black women these are men. Since the more educated and responsible blacks have detached themselves from these leaches on society, the woman that are left are easily lured into this situation. Just look at the ages for many of these unwed births..black men will simply turn to preying on the younger, even more naive black women. It is a problem that is ingrained in their culture and fueled by the rewarding of that behavior by our government. If one cannot afford one child, then having one means that family is 'overpopulated', which would be a problem in a responsible society; unfortunately our government has chosen to reward that behavior. Birth rates for this part of the population is double that of the educated section of our society. 'When the people that need the most can vote in the person that will GIVE them the most, democracy is on the downslide!'

Yes, Tchem, there must be something punitive for bringing a child into the world by people who should not be parents.

Give these people, no matter what race they are, give them something to really think long and hard about before they decide to make a baby for the government to take care of. That would cut down on a lot of teenage pregnancies.

I think the thought of picking fruits and vegetables for 18 years, or some other swift and assured, lasting punishment, would be a strong incentive for young people to (1) use protection, (2) abstain from sex altogether, or (3) prepare themselves to be qualified in order to have children, so they will be fully capable of meeting all of those
challenges associated with raising children and to certainly do so without government assistance.

Something must be done.

To many of them, the "no good, shiftless, and lazy" are exactly what they find attractive.

Unbelievable as this may seem it is absolutely true. I have seen it with my own two eyes many, many times. And the cycle just continues.

Many of these Black, young women have become no more than sperm banks for them. This is why I place the blame more so on them than I do on men.

All of what we are saying also plays right into one of the major reasons why the AIDS percentage in major, Black dominated cities is so high.

Although this is about as far from a definition of a "man" that one can get, to the black women these are men.

Here is my definition of a man:

1) gets up every day and goes to work;

2) plays by the rules;

3) has reasonable short, intermediate and long range goals to accomplish. One of those goals should be to buy a home for him and his family in the best social environment possible;

4) lives well within his means; and,

5) concentrates on seeing to it his children get the best fundamental education possible (grades 1-12), away from schools full of hard heads. Then encourage and help put his children through college. His goal should be to provide for his children more opportunities than he had.

Can you think of anything else?

Being a man to most of these young people is being able to kick someone's a$$. Or being a common street criminal or thug, where others are afraid of the person because of their reputation. Or the person is a gang leader or constant trouble maker and typical hooligan.

Since the more educated and responsible blacks have detached themselves from these leaches on society, the woman that are left are easily lured into this situation

Also, very true.

All the good, educated Black men are spoken for fairly early. What's left is just that: what's left. So many Black women happily accept this; even consider it normal.

But then again many good Black man do remain single, only to be looked upon by Black women has having skeletons in their closet, since they don't fit the typical ignorant, gangster, street types out there.

And it is by no accident there appears to be more and more lesbianism as a chosen lifestyle that is left for many Black young women also.

Many think it is cute. Many think it is so acceptable and so hip.

I think it is a pity and a tragedy. Either way there are negative connotations: A black woman either ends up with what is left or becomes a lesbian.

So, perhaps, the only thing left for many is to seek relationships with men outside of their race. But for many such a proposition may not be that realistic.

It is a problem that is ingrained in their culture and fueled by the rewarding of that behavior by our government.

This is why there should be some repercussions for having children when the parents are not qualified to do so.

Make it plain: The government will no longer help you raise and financially support you and your weapons of mass destruction. And you will be severely punished if you have them, when you have been instructed not to do so because you don't qualify.

People are sick and tired of having to deal with these violent, nasty, Jordan wanna bees, foul mouth, du-rag wearing, pants hanging off their butt, baby making terrorists.

The parents didn't deal with providing them what they needed in order for them to have become good and productive members of society and so not only do they continue to make more babies just like themselves, but they also become employment for what has been referred to as The Prison Industrial Complex.

Much of the information you have posted supports this.

I say: Tell it like it is. And if the truth hurts ... tough.

Well, the comments I was referring were those comments Cosby said when he berated the parents of Black children.

I am sorry. I don't know what other comments you may be speaking of.

And are you certain we have not spoken before when you used another name?

No, I've always been Plantsmantx here. In my last comment, I was just making the point that a lot of whites...there's no other way to put it...get off on the punitiveness of the "poundcake speech" without understanding what Cosby's opinions are, beyond what they seem to be in that speech, and don't understand where they come from.

Oh sorry. I thought you may have been someone else.

I am Black.

And, yes, many people are as you say.

Holder knows this to be true. He got where he is today via the same path as everybody else who has anything going for them: by doing more right than he did wrong, by taking advantage of his education, by being the product of a two-parent family and raising his kids in the same. Contrary to his earlier comments he didn't accomplish all that he has by begging everybody he encountered to talk about race, but simply by positioning himself to take advantage of every opportunity that came his way and then capitalizing on those opportunities, which is kind of the American way.

Power

Why do you hate black people WILDWONDERFUL?

That is a very inflammatory remark which you have no basis to make

LOL!!

Power

The shoe doesn't fit and you know it. Your accusations have no merit. Your trying to distort my words into something they truly are not.

Power,

Are you sure you want to argue that people like those under discussion -- absentee fathers and senseless mothers -- are the epitome or embodiment of black people? If so, then one might also argue that Wild is right to hate "black people" or at least black people as you define them.

Power,

You've accused wild of hating black people because she has little tolerance for the folks who now or will one day cause 90% of black kids to be on food stamps. Those people are not, or should not be, representative of black people in anybody's book. When you suggest that her dislike of such folks translates into disdain for all black people, you imply that they are representative. I don't think that's a characterization you really want to make. It is certainly not a characterization that I would make. It is also extremely erroneous.

There was an article a few weeks ago stating that something like 90% of black children will be on food stamps during their lifetime.

Well if it was an article, then it must be the truth right?/s/ Do you have any concept of how much 90% really is?

I still say we need a neutering program

Interested to hear what other groups of people you think should be forcefully neutered in such a world. Hey, just think of all the jobs that would be created in the process right? /s/.

PiperGirl

"little tolerance" and "dislike" are words of civilized tone. Using the bold printed phrase with the word "neutered" in reference to human beings, who many of us think are getting swiped with a hell of a broad brush, was a cowardly pass at degrading these people to the status of animal. Doesn't take a whole lot of twisting to get the wrong impression from that.

Thanks for responding PoperGirl.

No offense Power, but you do understand what they're trying to do, don't you? They're trying to twist things to make you look like the racist. I said "no offense" just in case I'm offending you by pointing out something that's so transparent. Wildwonderful says "I don't care what color they are", but he talked about neutering(yes, I said it, too)people in the context of someone's supposed projection that 90% of black children will be on food stamps (which, as I understand, don't actually exist any more, btw). Then PiperGirl jumps in and accuses you of calling black people animals because you used the word neutered. Of course, that was an attempted diversion away from the fact that Wildwonderful talked about establishing a program of forced sterilization. Wow, that actually sounds worse than "neutering", doesn't it? Ok, PiperGirl...I won't say "neutering". I'll say forced sterilization.

From 1934 until 1939, about 400.000 women and men were victims of the Nazi forced sterilization. The victims were said to be "hereditarily diseased", even though the hereditary character of the diseases in question was still disputed.

• 90% of black children will be on food stamps (which, as I understand, don't actually exist any more, btw)

Which don't exist anymore ? Black children or food stamps? I can assure you food stamps still exist (although some places use a "debit card" like system now). And I am sure I have seen black children, Although they look more like shades of brown to me.

I can assure you food stamps still exist

EBT cards replaced paper foods stamps years ago.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/rules/Legislation/about.htm

Again none of my comments were racists in any form. I think it is sad thing to have as many of our children on food stamps no matter what their race. As a country we have far too many kids being born to single parents. This supply of kids is expanding at far too rapid a pace. If you are going to bring children into this world you should be financially responsible for them. The only way I know to reduce this supply is to limit the supply.

What you subsidize you expand and that is exactly what we have been doing is subsidizing the supply of illegitimate kids or irresponsible families.

Power

And the fact I already do is wrong. We are rewarding either immoral or irresponsible behavior.