Why Won't Depressed and Unhappy People Put Themselves in a Better Place by Reinventing Themselves?

you're assuming that they're not doing exactly that.

My experience as a therapist has taught me that people with depression are "removing the obstacles," but they tend to have more of them and/or tend to have to take a more circuitous route than might others.

In the case of clinical depression and other types of mental illness, it is not always (or even usually) as simple as moving the obstacles. Think about it - if it were that simple, no one would suffer unless the suffering were serving a purpose. We know the suffering seldome if ever serves a purpose.

Mental illness is just like physical illness - it seldom gets better without effective treatment. Imagine telling a diabetic or a cancer patient to "just get over it."

Why continue to live in misery when one has the power to remove the obstacles?

Some people don't recognize obstacles well enough to move them, some people move them, but put them in the wrong places, which still causes grief, and some people simply do not know how or do not have the required comprehension skills to talk themselves out of it.

That's just a few rationales. There are any number of things that can hold an individual back and rob them of happiness.

PIK, it sounds like you have never experienced true clinical depression, either yourself or from the perspective of a loved one or clinician dealing with a depressed person.

PET scan results from people during an episode of depression differ from PET scan results from non-depressed people. PET results from a depressed person undergoing treatment look more like the results of non-depressed people. There are neurochemical differences present in depressed brains, and these are not apparent to the casual observer. We do not fully understand these differences yet, which is why pharmacotherapy and other interventions are still hit-and-miss.

People used to think schizophrenics were possessed by demons, and that malaria was caused by breathing bad air. As medical science progresses, perhaps we will be able to understand the causes and treatments for depression better as well.

If a truly depressed person--not just a "bummed out" person or upset person--were to win the lottery, move to a fabulous home in a new town, take a long vacation, find the person of his/her dreams has suddenly fallen madly in love with him/her, etc...he/she would still be depressed! It is not about changing the venue or reinventing oneself.

Telling a depressed person he has the power to change his thinking and mood all on his own is like telling an amputee he has the power to regenerate the lost limb by really concentrating and thinking positive thoughts.

There's no drive to better themselves. They feel that's all there is to life.

Slothfulness does bad things to good people. And, the great irony is we control slothfulness.

Sloth is willful laziness. Vegetative symptoms of depression are not willful.

Yes, I believe there are some people that have absolutely no control over their emotional response to the world around them. I also, believe these people are very few in numbers. I believe most people just have enabled laziness.

There are those also that want attention and gain it through such methods as depression. This behavior/characteristic could be intentional or unintentional, a conscious act or an unconscious/subconscious defect.

I know someone very well that lives on the border between crippling narcissism and slothfulness. (My choice of the word narcissismwas not a mistake.) It's true that illness at a young age contributed to their current state. However, the main causes were inherited predisposition for OCD, narcissistic behavior, and paranoid behavior reenforced by an enabling parent. This person can see and describe their siuation, and acknowedge the steps to improve their life. But, they can do nothing about it because they are unable to muster the will.

When faced with a dire circumstance this person demonstrated that they could overcome, adapt and prevail. I believe, if it is painful enough to remain where they are, they will move to better place.

I believe, if it is painful enough to remain where they are, they will move to better place.

In other words, you believe it is a chosen behavior set rather than an illness?

Or you believe it is an illness that can be coped with if this individual is willing to do enough work?

Physical disease or injury can also cause depression or sadness. You say, "Remove the obstacle." Yet, there are many diseases out there that have no cure. How do you remove that obstacle?

Kate, I believe this person had a chance to grow with very little of the pain associated with taking emotional risks when he was young. Now the emotional wall is so high this person may never find enjoyment in life. Today, I don't know anyone that could help him climb over this wall.

I believe he and two other people chose his behavior set. His parents enabled his dis-functional behavior at a young age until they passed away. To add to this, his mom's behavior was similar to his. Unfortunately, there was no one around until he was over 30 that could help him see the world differently. By that time there was no one that could carry the burdened without putting their own emotional health in jeopardy.

Today he is extremely selfish, a clumsy manipulator, in poor physical shape, and mostly a hermit.

Bill - just as unhealthy environment can contribute to diminished physical health and to illness, it can contribute to diminished mental health and to mental illness. It sounds as if this person's environment was such that his physical and mental health were severely hampered by a toxic elements in his environment. That doesn't mean he can't be helped but it isn't likely to be a simple task. In any event, it's not something he can be blamed for.

Kate, I don't blame him. I'm just pointing out that the only path to living well is the path we take of our own volition.

I don't blame anyone for how well they live their life. I just point out that they are responsible for their life. I understand there are extreme cases where this is not true, but they are very rare. We do a diservice to others by letting someone compare their plight to another that is truly unable to remdy their situation.

It's important for parents not to succumb to the teachers recommending drug therapy for "ADHD or ADD" kids, and it's import for parents not to let excuses rule over personal accountability.

I don't blame him. I'm just pointing out that the only path to living well is the path we take of our own volition.

It sure sounds like it; at the very least it sounds like you believe he can cure himself but willfully chooses not to. I have a hard time differentiating between that and blame.

Kate, You differentiate it be considering intent. Is my intent just to destroy or is it to build. I believe we must lay naked before us our true circumstance, then act honestly relative to that situation. If we are trying to help someone else we must be honest in as precise terms is possible. You might want to consider my comments in a clinical sense without moral interpretation.

And as in physical disease, sometimes the nature of the physical ailment can be removed with surgery...however, in mental disease, this is not an option, unless of course we go back to a time where lobotomy's were performed. Depression is not a choice, neither is "reinventing" oneself. I do, however know that obstacles can be changed, rearranged, moved and even hidden. I know from personal experience, that long before diagnosis, knowing I felt different or things were not right, I did "act" a different way to hide my yet "undiagnosed" condition. I had always lived with shame, guilt, anger and I did learn how to control a big majority of how others viewed me....however when the major depression takes over and it will, there is no longer a choice, and it gets the best of you. Until it takes you so far down, that hospitilization is required or something drastic changes does it get the treatment like anything else that ails us. It's a very painful disease and it's hidden, the only real way to tell are by the symtoms...and they can often be masked and go unnoticed till it gets to a very bad place...I'm one of the very fortunate ones. Hek:)

I don't know if I was born with it or had a predispostion or any of that, all I do know is I've had it, suffered it and now I'm aware I'm vulnerable to it, and the triggers are stress. Living in an enrionment like I did, was not an option for me growing up to just say "hey this is unhealthy for me", but when I could I left. I was a mess for a long, long time...but I lived. I still survive every day, but I live.

While I agree that humans should "reinvent" themselves, if possible, there are often limitations in doing so.

If one has the social and economic resources, all can be well.

Otherwise, I have met and encountered too many people that are irreversibly "stuck" in situations that 'reality" will not exonerate.

I believe we must lay naked before us our true circumstance, then act honestly relative to that situation. If we are trying to help someone else we must be honest in as precise terms is possible.

Billy you bring up a good point and I would say an excellent point. As with any ailment a doctor and patient have to explore the treatment that works.

Hekofawoman

the triggers are stress

Knowing what triggers your episode opens an avenue of treatment. If we don't explore every avenue for an acceptable treatment to, at the very least, lessen the effects of depression than we aren't being honest with ourselves. Now for those that have done everything humanly possible, no one wants to be this way, please keep going, keep fighting!

It takes a long, long time to know, understand what "triggers" are. When one lives their life in survival mode, it is very hard to distinguish what is real and what is a persons defense mode. For a long, long time, I had many defenses that I would have told anyone they were crazy, it is me, when all along it wasn't so....it took a hard, deep depression, to start getting to the root causes for mine. It will take the rest of my life to not act on my survival instincts, but it's far better. Yes, knowledge of oneself is a good thing, it's scary and it requires a huge amount of willingness to look at the truth, not only about oneself, but the truth about everyone involved, as they say "it takes two" and I have found this to be true....everything that happens to us in this life is a direct reaction to outside contributors, no matter what they are, people, places and things, fear, I believe being the greatest motivator...everything out there make us react in someway no different then the good things. Thanks again:)

For your struggles and perseverance, you are a heck of a woman. I can only say thank you for your example and your fight

"Isn't this possible for others who suffer from depression?"

You've answered the question yourself:

"It DIDN'T CURE the bi-polar but it helped her have a different outlook on life."

Even you recognize there was no cure in this case, even with treatment. A positive outlook does not equal a cure from depression.

Nothing wrong with counseling, therapy, CBT, and the like as part of the treatment for mental illness. But it is not always the total solution to the problem. And we rarely "cure" people of mental illness even using all these modalities--because the fact is we really do not know the entire biochemical basis for these disorders.

Also, note that your friend's child did not simply think happy thoughts and pull herself out on her own. She worked with a trained therapist.

And your original questions in this seed were much more simplistic, i.e. why do depressed people "choose to stay in a bad place." You can't fault other Newsvine users for taking offense at such an insensitive question, or at your lumping "unhappy" people in with those who suffer from an actual medical problem.

It would also be good for you to familiarize yourself with the differences between Major Depression , Bipolar Disorder, and most importantly Adjustment Disorder with Depressed Mood. People often mistake AD w/ DM for major depression, and after seeing someone spontaneously recover from AD w/ DM, or recover with minimal "talking therapy" and a positive outlook, they assume all "depressed" people can do the same.

That would be called CBT, commonly used in a therapeutic setting, along with meds and other therapies. It is not about "thinking" yourself about of depression, and certainly not bipolar. There is no cure for bipolar or most mental illnesses. Using the term unhappy in the same sentence as depressed has obviously struck a chord. It is apples and oranges and disingenuous to think otherwise.

Your description of your friends daughters issues is troubling, I don't know if your wording is poor, if you don't have all of the information or it is continued misunderstanding. This is the kind of thinking the perpetuates the stigma and misunderstanding of mental health and mental illness. Sad.

No, I believe YOU are the one making assumptions about something which you obviously know very little. Your condescending attitude does not make your lack of knowledge any more palatable.

Neither you nor I know the therapy used or what was in the kid's mind or what her coping mechanisms are. You're making assumptions to prove your point. My question is if it worked for this kid couldn't it work for others.

You admit you don't know what treatment/therapy was used or what her coping mechanisms are. So you are making assumptions. How do you know "it" is working for this kid or what "it" is?

Didn't one of this type of self improvement guru just kill a bunch of people in a sweat lodge?

There have always been con artists promising to cure something by separating their victims from their money. Years ago I had an odd professional connection with some folks associated with those recent deaths out West. They have tried to geographically distance themselves from a long and wide wake of personal destruction............but it never ends with flim flam artists.

Bipolar disorder cannot be cured with talk or a positive attitude. Actually part of bipolar disorder is an excess of "positive" feelings. Many who have this diagnosis are reluctant to get treatment because the highs are very high. It is biochemical and though there is a relationship between trauma and neurochemistry, happy thoughts don't cure us or make us rich. It's a disservice to charm folks into thinking otherwise.

I did read the links. Neither one has a legitimate claim to treatment of depression.

The first is the website of a woman with degrees in Geology and Marine Studies, who seems to have dropped out of her original Psychology program as an undergrad. That tells me she has some 100-400 level courses in Psych, and is not an actual psychologist, social worker, psychiatrist, or other clinician actually qualified and licensed to treat mental illness. Her consulting business seems more like motivational speaking, along the lines of the nonsense advertised in your second link.

Actual mental illness does not call for "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People," a Dale Carnegie course, or Tony Robbins types. It calls for trained psychiatric professionals.

I will take your links seriously when you come up with some from the peer-reviewed medical or psych literature, instead of some that might imply that depressed people simply need to visualize success and happiness, or that the things that one does to motivate a businessperson to succeed are all that is required to treat serious mental illnesses.

What's next? Telling depressed people to snap out of it before they end up in a van down by the river?

And I'm not disputing the child deliberately thought happy thoughts as part of her therapy, I'm saying that was only one small part of the CBT process with her therapist, and that it is still not a cure for depression or bipolar.

took

ditto. You covered it pretty well. Unfortunately bipolar became the disease du jour some years back and there are plenty of unafflicted dopes who want to join the club.

Obviously they have no idea of the devastating side of the Dx but want to identify with artists and creative types who have had the dubious benefit of the highly productive high periods.

I am dismayed by this kind of deception (perhaps well intentioned) and the self righteous proselytizing by uninformed initiates passing on their "wisdom." Scream therapy, EST, may their devotees experience millions of reincarnations for every bit of damage they do.

"Unfortunately bipolar became the disease du jour some years back and there are plenty of unafflicted dopes who want to join the club."

I often wonder if these pseudo-bipolars just want to have a convenient excuse for embarrassing behavior. You know, absolutely no prior history, no pressured speech or other signs of a manic episode--but when caught with a hooker or running up huge debts at the race track, they suddenly say "well, I was manic at the time." Then they check into rehab and everyone praises them for overcoming their illness.

It is an insult to those who truly suffer from these disorders.

took

We've become a society of folks who are dying for attention or fame (those idiots who crashed the White House come to mind).

They have no concern for who they might hurt. I guess there's probably a diagnosis for these wannabes but I think they are just @!$%#s. They aren't bipolar since they usually have a permanently disproportionate positive view of themselves. I have a favored treatment for them, I avoid them like the plague. This might make them more needy for attention but it makes me happier and healthier.

For the proponents of pseudo treatments.........drugs are the only thing that really make BP manageable. Professional guidance and good Pharmaceutical management are the key, not hippy-dippy (and I was a hippy way back then) BS.

Hanging out with more positive people can sure help!

I'm thinking of taking a trip, that might help also.

Oh, you actually met someone with it? Wow. Lady, I've lived with major depression my entire life. My daughter is severely bi-polar. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. It has exactly nothing to do with your fricking attitude. Which part of what every person on here has said are you having trouble with? We all want to get better. Duh. Get an education before you run your mouth. Until you have lived it, you don't know @!$%#. How many people in your family have dealt with mental illness? I can tell just by what you've written that the answer is none. I have literally fought for my daughter's very life more than once. Take your quack talk and shove it.

Even if toastmasters helped her mindset, she is likely on lithium or some other mood stabilizer as well. Positive thinking is not enough. And unless you also have access to her pharmacy records, you have no way of knowing if she is also on meds. Many patients will not admit to psychiatric drug use, especially in front of non-afflicted members of their social circles.

Also, the plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you know...two...bipolar patients who have used positive thinking as ONE PART of their overall treatment program, that does not mean it will work for everyone. And it certainly does not mean it will work as monotherapy.

What those of you who've comment here have taught me is that some people are downright mean and spiteful and hateful and that has nothing to do with mental illness but is a conscious choice and that's something I don't experience with my clients.

Mean, spiteful and hateful? How about angry, indignant and insulted? Grow up. ALL of those emotions are felt and displayed by "normal" people AND those with mental illness. If you have not experienced this, particularly in your 'agency', then you live in another world. Perhaps you positively thunk your way out of recognizing it.

Not only do we make a conscious choice to become incensed by your ill-conceived article, we have every right to post our thoughts and feelings about it. You have obviously chosen to ignore every single experience, idea, fact and comment and stick to your mantra. You asked a question and didn't want to hear the answer. It was loud and clear. You don't want to hear it, it doesn't fit with your 'mindset'.

Not only do we make a conscious choice to become incensed by your ill-conceived article, we have every right to post our thoughts and feelings about it.

And to tack on my own thoughts, no patient with depression - or any other mental or physical illness - makes the conscious choice to have it.

"I did help a few..."

"...able to help some of them"

I don't doubt this, and I congratulate you and your co-workers for helping those who could be helped by such interventions. They were likely not suffering from severe mental illness, however.

That does not change the fact that you seem to think all depressed people should be able to respond to the same limited interventions. That is what everyone is offended by and getting sarcastic about.

And if you routinely work with mentally ill clients, I'd suggest you read up on these diseases a bit more. Don't just rely on the "extensive training" supplied by your employer.

And be sure to read from credible sources, not just random feel-good websites put up by people with products or services to sell. Go to the peer-reviewed literature, check out some psychology textbooks from your local college or med school library, etc.

Bless you for working with the homeless, but I fear you have a rude awakening coming the first time you have to deal with a 300 lb. unmedicated schizophrenic or manic patient. Physical injury can result. Not all mentally-ill people are able to sit quietly during a toastmasters meeting or wait in line at a soup kitchen. Remember to never position the client between the door and yourself--always be sure that you are closer to the door in case you need to escape from a violent person (learned that one the hard way myself back in med school....)

Helping an individual change his/her mindset does work and has worked.

So, these individuals have no 1) medical intervention, 2) psychiatric intervention, 3) medication?

PIK wrote: If they're not interested in changing their mindset or they're not able, I request reassignment.

took wrote: Bless you for working with the homeless, but I fear you have a rude awakening coming the first time you have to deal with a 300 lb. unmedicated schizophrenic or manic patient.

Obviously, PIK won't have this problem as anyone who bucks her "happy" system gets dumped.

"Obviously, PIK won't have this problem as anyone who bucks her "happy" system gets dumped."

A good thing for both patient and PIK. Those who believe depression is a choice should find another line of work, or educate themselves properly about mental illness.